Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench

[picowatt]

PW,

do i understand correctly that you want me to measure the FFT signals across the series capacitor like in the situation shown below?


Itsu

Itsu,

Disconnect the grenade from the 28T.  Connect the two wires coming from the grenade directly to the grenade's tuning cap.  Disconnect the bridge rectifier and load.

Connect the scope across the tuning cap.  Connecting the scope's ground lead to the "hot" end of the grenade might provide better AC line noise rejection.  If AC line noise is overwhelming, try placing a grounded sheet of foil over the whole coil/area.

If you don't want to disturb/disconnect things right now, you could also try connecting the scope across the grenade's tuning cap and only disconnect the bridge rectifier/load (ie, leave the 28T connected).

I am interested in what the noise floor of the tuned grenade looks like "just sitting there" (no power to PP or TC). 

If and when you have the time...

PW

[picowatt]

Yes.
IMO for the optimal pri→sec energy stransfer, the frequency of the pulses in the burst should be synchronized to the frequency at which the TC/K secondary^* wants to oscillate naturally ("naturally"=not forcefully driven).

^* and all its accessories like the gizmo and antenna.

Verpies,

You are indeed correct, but what you describe is moreso a double tuned TC wherein the primary and secondary are tuned to resonate at the same frequency.

With Itsu's new driver, or the self-oscillating "Slayer" type driver of the Vasik's original schematic, there will typically be phase/frequency discontinuities between the primary and secondary of a single tuned TC  (without adding some sort of phase locking circuitry).

This is usually dealt with in a single tuned TC by reducing the coupling between the primary and secondary (ie, increasing the diameter of the primary relative to the secondary), to allow a bit more "freedom" between the two.

My understanding...

PW

[Itsu]

Itsu,

Disconnect the grenade from the 28T.  Connect the two wires coming from the grenade directly to the grenade's tuning cap.  Disconnect the bridge rectifier and load.

Connect the scope across the tuning cap.  Connecting the scope's ground lead to the "hot" end of the grenade might provide better AC line noise rejection.  If AC line noise is overwhelming, try placing a grounded sheet of foil over the whole coil/area.

If you don't want to disturb/disconnect things right now, you could also try connecting the scope across the grenade's tuning cap and only disconnect the bridge rectifier/load (ie, leave the 28T connected).

I am interested in what the noise floor of the tuned grenade looks like "just sitting there" (no power to PP or TC). 

If and when you have the time...

PW

OK, so basically a parallel circuit Grenade / capacitor, see diagram below.

This is a problem as i have a fairly strong local FM station near by which shows up on my scope etc.

Below screenshot shows in blue the signal across the Grenade / cap and on red the FFT trace (12.5MHz / div.) in which we see the station at 105MHz.

No other lower frequency signal is visible.

Itsu

[Verpies]

This is usually dealt with in a single tuned TC by reducing the coupling between the primary and secondary (ie, increasing the diameter of the primary relative to the secondary), to allow a bit more "freedom" between the two.

Yes, reducing the coupling coefficient between the primary and secondary is fine when the primary's diameter is increased ...but not its width.

With the bursted drive, if the phase drifts away too much from the optimum, the out-of-phase primary drive will actually kill the oscillations in the secondary (if the secondary is still oscillating before the new burst begins ...and if it not oscillating, then the amplitude of oscillations in the secondary will not build up from burst to burst).

...and of course the proper conditions for a maximum amplitude standing wave must be met in the secondary as in any TC.  This is opposite to making a radio antenna out of it.

[picowatt]

OK, so basically a parallel circuit Grenade / capacitor, see diagram below.

This is a problem as i have a fairly strong local FM station near by which shows up on my scope etc.

Below screenshot shows in blue the signal across the Grenade / cap and on red the FFT trace (12.5MHz / div.) in which we see the station at 105MHz.

No other lower frequency signal is visible.

Itsu

Itsu,

Thanks for that...

I was moreso hoping to see signs of noise at the resonant frequency of the tuned grenade (ca, 24K).

Any way to expand your FFT to a narrower, LF bandwidth?

PW

[Itsu]

Yes i can expand my FFT to a narrower, LF bandwidth like 5KHz / div., but there are no signals to be seen there, just noise.


Itsu

[Vasik041]

I built test setup for Tesla coil with slightly different driver schematic, but functionally equivalent to Stalker's driver.
HV coil is 37.5m on 50mm tube wound with 0.5mm wire.
6 turns primary works better for me then 3 turns, it seems that number of turns need to be selected experimentally.
pic. 1 show current in ground wire and voltage (close to antenna)
There is interesting effect that last most powerful pulse comes after the burst, when driver already switched off
(may be it is a driver artifact ?) pic.2
In both, voltage and current, two main frequencies present 1.3 and 5.9Mhz
1.3MHz is LC resonance (was 2.45 without antenna), 5.9Mhz I guess is HV coil wave resonance
With 200v power supply I can obtain sparks 0.5-1cm long from antenna, but they are not white, just white blue.
Some people suggested that for better results LC need to be tuned to 1/3 of wave resonance...

Regards,
Vasik

[Verpies]

6 turns primary works better for me then 3 turns, it seems that number of turns need to be selected experimentally.

What parameter of the signal do you optimize for when selecting it experimentally ?

There is interesting effect that last most powerful pulse comes after the burst, when driver already switched off
(may be it is a driver artifact ?) pic.2

Indeed.
What is the round trip delay of the reflection from the end of the secondary winding ?

1.3MHz is LC resonance (was 2.45 without antenna), 5.9Mhz I guess is HV coil wave resonance

...and what is the self-oscillation frequency of the primary winding ?

With 200v power supply I can obtain sparks 0.5-1cm long from antenna, but they are not white, just white blue.

That's 8x higher supply voltage than Itsu's.

Some people suggested that for better results LC need to be tuned to 1/3 of wave resonance...

What is the theory behind that ?

[Vasik041]

What parameter of the signal do you optimize for when selecting it experimentally ?

voltage on antenna

What is the round trip delay of the reflection from the end of the secondary winding ?

You can calculate it from 2.45Mhz

...and what is the self-oscillation frequency of the primary winding ?

I don't know

Some people suggested that for better results LC need to be tuned to 1/3 of wave resonance

What is the theory behind that ?

I don't know

Vasik

[Verpies]

You can calculate it from 2.45Mhz

Does this include the grounding?

Usually, I use a symmetrical ungrounded system to measure the round-trip reflecton delay of the TC coil only, like this:

[Verpies]

...and what is the self-oscillation frequency of the primary winding ?

I don't know

Did you consider the possibility that the 5.9MHz might be it ?

[Vasik041]

I don't know

Did you consider the possibility that the 5.9MHz might be it ?

I think it is unlikely, it should be much higher.

[Vasik041]

Does this include the grounding?

Usually, I use a symmetrical ungrounded system to measure the round-trip reflecton delay of the TC coil only, like this:

yes, it includes grounding

[Allcanadian]

Verpies

Does this include the grounding?

Usually, I use a symmetrical ungrounded system to measure the round-trip reflecton delay of the TC coil only, like this:

Nice build, grounding is relative and more related to an effect than the ground per say.

For example, in your setup we have a high potential induced in the secondary which can oscillate between the two end loads like any ordinary capacitance. However in this case one end on the secondary has a positive charge and the other a negative charge, equal yet opposite. This is true because the coil volume is limited containing a finite number of conduction electrons. However the moment we connect one end to a "ground" the number of conduction electrons is not limited and the ground becomes part of the circuit. In this case the whole of the coil will alternately be charged positive then negative with respect to the ground.

better put, in your setup you can only produce a charge separation across the coil ie. (+)coil(-) or (-)coil(+). However when a ground plane comes into play then the whole of the coil becomes positive or negative as follows. Ground(-)>>>>coil(+), Ground(+)<<<coil(-) and the charge separation is then between the ground and the coil.

Now ask yourself why this matters?, to what end?.

If the coil produces a charge separation across the coil then the ends are not unlike two plates of a capacitor. However if the coil is connected to a ground plane then the coil becomes one plate of a capacitor and the ground plane the other. Obviously there is a difference and this difference is of great importance with respect to the kind of effects were looking for.

Think about it... in one instance the coil would act like two plates of a capacitor due to the charge separation, we connect a ground then the coil is forced to act like only one plate of a capacitor with the ground being the other plate. Most don't understand this, what happens when we move one plate of a conventional plate capacitor?... the capacitance changes. Since the energy in a capacitor is equal to 1/2CV^2 and the capacitance has changed then the energy must have changed as well. Since we know the energy must have changed then where was the point of dissipation of the energy?. Well, it's now between the coil and the ground plane and if for any reason the Earth potential should change then obviously this change would be reflected in the total energy between the coil and the ground plane.

This is how we attach a circuit to the wheelwork of nature, we make our circuit an integral part of nature able to interact with it. We create a motional circuit element which does not actually have to involve a physical motion.

Think of it this way, if we had two charged capacitor plates and we could make one plate instantly cease to exist the change in potential would be infinite. Apparently one person actually achieved something similar to this and even a marginal initial charge produced millions of volts. Which doesn't actually violate the laws of physics but more so proves there are countless variations of the laws that we have yet to fully comprehend.

Understand the Conservation Of Energy always applies however were swimming in a sea of energy ready to be transformed so energy was never the problem... understanding how to transform it is the problem.

Regards
AC

[Itsu]

In order to match the kacher secondary/ferrite/antenna self resonance frequency to the earlier measured 1.2Mhz Grenade resonance frequency, i created a new kacher secondary build on a pvc former using the below calculator shown output data.

http://gorchilin.com/calculator/coil14?lang=en

This new secondary measured 465uH, so very close to the calculated value.

Further data on this secondary:

length of the wire 29m
length of the coil 16cm
diameter former PVC 5cm
inductance measured 465uH
wire diameter 0.86mm
number of turns 185


But using this new secondary does not result in something spectacular and adds more to the confusion on why this kacher does not want to work well.

I received some 1.2KV MOSFETs and similar schottky diodes, so will be rebuilding the Kacher MOSFET driver using these parts so i can increase the drain voltage

Itsu

[NickZ]

   Itsu:
   Perhaps you can tune and vary the kacher output a bit, with ferrite inside of the kacher former tube. And, have you tried to tune the secondary by adding or removing turns, yet? We can see on Stalkers video and Geo's video that their big kacher secondary had several connection points, that are controlling the frequency of his secondary. And that a long secondary is not what is needed for the right frequency and interaction of this device.
Mine runs at around 1MHz.
   Could it be that the kacher secondary is just not actually matched to your induction circuit, yet. And other than that, there is really nothing else wrong? But no,
your kacher should provide for up to 3 to 5mm streams, even at 24v, on its own, regardless of the interaction with the induction circuit, and its sync.
So, something is wrong, and it's not your secondary, but could be your secondary's frequency tuning. Or other things to tune as suggested by Vasik.

   NickZ

[Itsu]

Nick,

i use a big ferrite rod to tune the secondary and/or the grenade, and it makes a lot of difference in the picked up shape and frequency of the HF signal, but i never see the typical triangle like ringing signal, but more several humps across the time line.

I know the Grenade, kacher secondary/antenna and kacher drive pulses are now al around 1.2MHz, so i would expect to see some sharp peaks coming up when approaching the kacher or grenade by hand and/or using the ferrite rod when at the sweet spot.

It more looks like the kacher signal is being absorbed by the grenade/inductor.

Perhaps i can remove the grenade/inductor etc. and do what Vasik did here:  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg93936#msg93936

Itsu

[Vasik041]

Itsu,

I see that antenna coil has very big influence, most probably you will get high voltage and long streamer if you disconnect it.
Thinking about it I look on one of Ruslan's schematics, there is an extra coil wound with a tape. It seems to make some kind of symmetric setup with "shniaga" and antenna coil. May be it purpose make an impedance conversion ?

Regards,
Vasik

[Itsu]

Yes, that extra coil (tape) on the top end of the secondary i had/have on my first secondary too (no tape but thicker wire), and its opposite wound as the secondary itself.

I will keep that in mind too.

Itsu

[Verpies]

But using this new secondary does not result in something spectacular and adds more to the confusion on why this kacher does not want to work well.

Could you show the node and antinodes on your next video like in the experiment below ?:
https://youtu.be/nkMndCsNRQU?t=304

[Verpies]

Nice build, grounding is relative and more related to an effect than the ground per say.

That arrangement of coils was only for determining the speed of the propagation along the coiled secondary winding (which acts as an element of a dipole antenna). 

That propagation in a coiled element is much slower than in a straight element (e.g. in a symmetrical TC, a straight element on the left side would have to be much longer to balance a shorter coiled element on the right side.)


For such measurements, I just find it easier to construct an entire dipole rather than a monopole + a perfect ground
...and I really dislike when my test equipment acts as the ground, too.

The radiation pattern of a dipole antenna in free space is the same as the monopole's antenna over a perfect ground.  A perfect ground creates a perfect mirror image of the other half of the dipole (dashed red line on the diagram attached below).

Of course, I know that when the dipole is half the wavelength of the wave, which is propagating in it, then the dipole becomes the optimum RF radiator and when it is quarter of that wavelength, then it is just the opposite (S11 and VSWR are opposite, too).

[Itsu]

Could you show the node and antinodes on your next video like in the experiment below ?:
https://youtu.be/nkMndCsNRQU?t=304

Something like this:  https://youtu.be/xlX4b73moKA

Guess that that node should not be there.

Itsu

[Verpies]

Guess that that node should not be there.

Yes, the node at this place indicates wavelength to coil length mismatch....but maybe not to the coil+gizmo+antenna.


Also, the HF magnetic field sensor on the stick is great but the magnetic field is only one side of the coin in a TC/Kacher.

Consider adding an electric field sensor, too.  Like in this video:
https://youtu.be/U9yFrQ41Za0?t=69

This way you will have a dual-field (H&E) detector on a stick ...and you will be able to see much more.


P.S.
The H-field sensing coil can double as one side of the E-field sensor's pickup electrode....or they can be completely separate - whatever works best...

[Itsu]

OK,  is that a neon bulb on that stick, can't really see.

Itsu

[Verpies]

@ Vasik

Which grounding layout do you recommend for TCs ?

Blue is the primary. Green is a real secondary element. Gray is a virtual secondary element (image). The thick black line is the ground.