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Author Topic: Serbian Professor Savic Sonic water heater replication COP 12  (Read 294047 times)
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Some thoughts from across the great divide:

Quote
We are talking about acoustic tuning.

Is the idea that the electrical excitation remains 50 Hz or 60 Hz mains power and you don't change that?  You are just tuning the bells to be a harmonic of your mains power?

Quote
I will probably keep tinkering with these cups I believe the forth octave of 60 Hz is 960. I'll try to tune a new cup to this frequency.

What is the significance of tuning your bells to the fourth octave?  What are your expectations?  Don't forget that when you immerse your tuned bells in water then they won't be tuned to 960 Hz anymore.  Plus the water is going to greatly dampen the oscillations.  Compared to the air, the water looks like quicksand from the perspective of the potentially resonating bells.

Also, the mains power is probably a very decent to excellent sine wave.  Therefore the signal power at the fourth harmonic of the AC mains power is going to be minuscule, all of the signal power will be at 60 Hz.  So there is almost no signal power at 960 Hz to excite the bells anyways.  Also, only a very tiny amount of the electrical power will become vibratory mechanical power to make the bells potentially resonate.  And you can't forget that when the bells are immersed in water they won't resonate at 960 Hz!

It sounds to me like the "acoustic tuning" is a little more complicated than some people have considered.

If I was to do this experiment I would look for a glass container made of very thin glass.  If I couldn't find one I would make one with very thin sheets of glass or Perspex and silicone sealant.  I am assuming that the sealant could take the high temperature. If you can imagine a thin glass cube with one surface removed.  Then I would sit that on top of a piece of Styrofoam.  That way you only have a thin glass cube to deal with for your temperature measurements.  With the glass being thin it would take on the temperature of the water in just a few seconds.  It would be quasi "invisible"  thermally and only disturb your temperature measurements by a very tiny bit.  Plus, you could look up the specific heat of the glass or Perspex that you are using and since you know the dimensions of the cube you could calculate the volume and the thermal mass of the cube itself and then factor that into your efficiency calculations.

MileHigh
   
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Quote
Some thoughts from across the great divide:


Are you the knucklehead, MH... or is it me?  Or are we both knuckleheads?  :)

I always find it amusing when clueless individuals try to defend their ignorance with yet more ill-conceived science and irrational arguments.

I had the same tuning issues with the infamous Fast Freddy. Tuning two pipes, bells, or whatever in air hanging from a thin cord, means little if you are then going to glue or bolt the pieces down and submerge them in a liquid, as the whole dynamics will have changed.

With high currents travelling through the bells and the water, is is feasible that the magnetic fields created will interact and possibly cause the bells to slightly oscillate at 50 - 60Hz.  But this is not resonance, has nothing to do with resonance and certainly there is nothing to tune.

I'm baffled as to why they are simply dismissing resistive heating, while instead looking for something more exotic. But then we see this blinkered view time and time again. This lack of commonsense, ready dismissal of known science and total failure see past their own preconceptions ultimately boils down to a lack of education and general ignorance.  That said, if they're having fun with it... well, you never know, they might actually learn something one day. :)
   
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Well
Chuck chuck Yuk Yuk
Here, You two chew on this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAllG6vUiPc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOg_JQGPGEk


I know these Idiots don't have a PreKindergarten comprehension of Things!!
They should know you can't Loop anything??
SillY Kids!!

Oh There so Cute Though Look at all their Toys!!
Why I bet they spent all their Lunch money Huh??

But it looks like there having Fun?? And maybe YOU"LL LEARN SOMETHING NEW

Imagine that??

From Helmut
We love yah babe
Thanks for sharing buddy

Chet
PS
And if anyone knows where I can get an 8 inch tall X2.5 inch wide aluminum can?
I need it for my pre K kindergarden project

 O0
THX
   
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Chet:

I don't understand German so I can't say much about the clips.  From a glance it looked like it might have been people running engines with hydrogen gas injected into the fuel mixture.

Look, if this is all about acoustic tuning and across the divide they want to be dismissive of the points being made here then let's really talk about the tuning.  What's the deal on the tuning?  What are you trying to achieve with the tuning and what are your expectations?

If this ends up where you guys all try different bells and cans and tune them in open air to a harmonic of the mains power (or an integer multiple of the fundamental frequency) and then make measurements well then good luck.  You are going to end up observing ordinary resistive heating effects every time.

The comment about the prekindergarten was made to dramatize the danger aspect for these experiments.  It comes from watching a clip from someone on a "delayed Lenz' law" thread where he was getting high voltage spikes from his coils and had no clue where they were coming from or how they were formed and he was almost in shock.  If you have never seriously experimented with electricity and you have no basic electronics knowledge then you should not be doing these experiments for your own safety.

So I raised some issues about the acoustic tuning.  What is the team thinking there?  Why don't you discuss these issues in more detail with your mentor?

Even if you could power the setup with AC power at 960 Hz and the bells were tuned to resonate at 960 Hz under water, it still wouldn't make ay difference with respect to how fast the water heats up.  That's the reality as I see it from my comfy armchair.  Whether I experiment or not is irrelevant, it's the results of your experiments and the thinking behind them that are relevant.  Right now it looks like the thinking is that open-air tuning of the bells to a harmonic of the mains power frequency will make some "magic" happen.  If that's all that you've got then you aren't learning much.

MileHigh
   
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MH
There are two different devices here!

Slovenia and I are replicating a device with very specific dimensions that is alleged to be the original work of Tesla
And has a specific OU claim,
The inventor is assisting....  albeit modestly ,,as he has a patent pending on Another device which evolved from this one.

When the data comes in from the different experiments ........We shall see?
AC and EM devices Both proposed some possibilities
Others have also.

It is simple It will be very Cheap and inexpensive to build
And FUN

I gotta go finish some projects so I can Clear the Time to Start this [and find a stupid 1/2 liter european Can!

Chet
   
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Chet, it never fails to amaze me by just how easily impressed and excited you get by some obscure video that in reality is meaningless.  It's like someone showing a video of monkey using a typewriter and saying that it is writing a novel... and you believing it.  Get a grip, Chet!

Clearly those guys have an ICE ticking over assumably from the gases produced by electrolysers.  Fast Freddy had a similar demonstration - it's no big deal. This is an engine just ticking over, with no load.  

Unless you are there in person to see exactly what is occurring, how and when and for how long - and know exactly what it is you are looking at - these guys could be up to anything, including being deceitful.  Fast Freddy had his engine ticking over (unloaded) for all of around 30 seconds before it ran out of steam and stalled, and people were impressed  ???. Did you notice the big tractor battery in the video? I wonder how many more of them there were knocking about? A high ampere/hour battery will be able to run an ICE on the gases from and electrolyser for a given time before it runs out of energy.

These videos are meaningless because they are never backed up with any relevant or detailed information or any figures to corroborate what they claim.  And lets face it, some of the videos you get excited about are mind-bogglingly pathetic to the extreme.

Core might think that MH and myself are armchair clowns, or knuckleheads, or whatever, but as MH says, there are many experiments that you don't need to do, to know what the outcome will be or indeed conclude how and why something is happening. The application of science and the knowledge passed down by generations of clever scientists sprinkled with a little commonsense is all that is required - and is clearly everything that is lacking from Core's interpretation of things.

Experimentation is all well and good, but if you don't have at least the basic knowledge to interpret what you are seeing, then what is the point? This is exactly why so many people come up with so many bizarre notions and outrageous claims - they simply have not got a clue about the science behind what they are doing or what they are witnessing happening. It's magic!

On a lighter note, why are you struggling to get hold of a beer can? Why do I get the feeling that this will be another project of yours that fails to materialise?

If all else fails, do what Core does, and use your bell-end! :-*


   
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The Peter Davey part of the link to the book only goes to emphasise that this really has nothing at all to do with anything resonating at 50Hz or 300Hz, 400Hz, or whatever - just simple resistive heating.
What is the page number of the page which leads you to say this?
   
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Chet:

Quote
Slovenia and I are replicating a device with very specific dimensions that is alleged to be the original work of Tesla
And has a specific OU claim,
The inventor is assisting....

My suggestion is to get the inventor's specific OU claim and data and lay it out on the table for everybody to see.  If need be the "technology" can just be a black box without any details.  Then do your replications and lay your results out and data on the table for everybody to see and compare the two.

In my opinion if you hear the old refrain from the inventor that "you didn't do your replication correctly" then that's a sure sign that you have been conned.

You really need a Kill-a-Watt meter to measure the energy in.  I'm not sure but the granularity of the Kill-a-Watt meter may be an issue also.  It's made for home use so suppose it's granularity is 0.1 Kilowatt-hours.  In that case you have to do a "burn" of at least 10 Kilowatt-hours to get reasonable accuracy from the device.  i.e.; You should base your data on at least 100 "counts" by the Kill-a-Watt meter to filter out the "quantization noise" associated with the device.

Good luck,

MileHigh
   
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MH
Yes I know how  things can go awry with these Claims, Thats why I'm getting the right can {Farrah   :P]

On another note Rex has updated there Files {more Herresy]
From Koen at OU

Koen1
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Ni-H LENR Energy Generator!
« on: Today at 11:32:08 AM »QuoteHi everybody,

in case you didn't know yet, there have been a few interesting developments
in the area of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, specifically those between Nickel
and Hydrogen.
A "cold" fusion reaction process has been developed that produces a nice amount
of output energy in the form of electrical current.
Patents have been filed, production of the first limited number of commercial generators
is in process.

Here are one or two links for those who are interested:
- http://www.rexresearch.com/rossi/rossi.htm
- http://www.rexresearch.com/piantelli/piantelli.htm

Perhaps not the most easy thing to build yourself, but interesting nevertheless.

Chet
   
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What is the page number of the page which leads you to say this?

Well, alarm bells ring - excuse the pun - when it states that the inventor used a bicycle bell. A bicycle bell would be of little use if it resonated at 50Hz in air as no one would hear that low bass frequency - it would be barely audible, if at all.  Have you ever heard a bicycle bell that didn't 'ring' at a nice audible frequency?  I've read through it a few times and what there is makes little sense.

However, it is what is not stated that is more important: COP<20 is mentioned, so is the 220 voltage and the 50Hz mains frequency, but I find no mention whatsoever of the current consumption - rather a crucial piece of data that they have neglected to state.
   
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Well, alarm bells ring - excuse the pun - when it states that the inventor used a bicycle bell.

I asked you for the page number.

What is that page number?
   
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@Ramset
You know many times I have found the process of invention and discovery has nothing to do with textbook knowledge, not training nor experience -- many times it is blind luck and having enough common sense to simply connect the dots and keep an open mind. Now concerning the mystery of the Peter Davey heater you may have just found the answer, Ni-H LENR Energy Generator. We have a confined space between the bells or plates which may undergo mechanical oscillations of pressure, we have intense heat, we may have the intermittent formation of hydrogen through electrolysis at the bell surface and nickel which is quite often used in the process of electroplating metals such as a "bell". As for the secret catalyst, since it is a secret we have no idea whether it would be present or not. In which case we would be able to simply connect the dots between cause and effect and the critics here would look pretty silly once again, in my opinion.
This is what I think science is all about, common sense, understanding and connecting the dots between cause and effect.
Regards
AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.” George Bernard Shaw
   
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I did some sniffing around about that Patrick J. Kelley document, "A Practical Guide to 'Free Energy' Devices," and found two things:

A great forum site for learning about electronics:

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/

A very sobering discussion on an earlier version of Patrick J. Kelley's document:

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14396

MileHigh
   
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deleted due to pointlessness :D
« Last Edit: 2011-10-12, 04:26:04 by allcanadian »


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.” George Bernard Shaw
   
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@Ramset
You know many times I have found the process of invention and discovery has nothing to do with textbook knowledge, not training nor experience
...

"In the fields of observation chance favors only the prepared mind." (Louis Pasteur).

All discoveries appear because phenomena observed by "prepared minds" lead them to practical applications. An  ignorant can't get ideas from observations because he can't realize or interpret what he is watching. You must have a certain degree of education linked to a certain degree of the human knowledge of your time (otherwise lightning conductors could have been invented by prehistorical men).
Typical example, Nikola Tesla:
- Higher Real Gymnasium in Karlovac
- Electrical engineering at the Austrian Polytechnic in Graz (where he studied mathematics, mechanics, physics).
Even a bright mind only is not enough, a solid background is also required for inventing.

The idea that unskilled, not trained or not experienced people could discover or invent useful things is not supported by  facts.


   
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I asked you for the page number.

What is that page number?

Yes you did ask me for the page number, which I find a little puzzling since you were the person that stuck the link up in the first place?  So you put a link up to an article that you assumed everyone knew about, yet you have not even read it yourself?  ???  Am I missing something here?

Page 14-12 - 14-13

Quote
"In the fields of observation chance favors only the prepared mind." (Louis Pasteur).

All discoveries appear because phenomena observed by "prepared minds" lead them to practical applications. An  ignorant can't get ideas from observations because he can't realize or interpret what he is watching. You must have a certain degree of education linked to a certain degree of the human knowledge of your time (otherwise lightning conductors could have been invented by prehistorical men).

Exn, this is precisely the point I was endeavouring to make by my previous comments regarding experimenting if you do not possess the necessary scientific background or knowledge to interpret what is happening. Pasteur puts it very eloquently.

   
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Some images of the Tesla Sonic water heating device Here

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8999-peter-daysh-davey-water-heater-query-14.html#post161897

I am trying to figure a way to post them directly here [or link]

Chet
   
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Yes you did ask me for the page number, which I find a little puzzling since you were the person that stuck the link up in the first place?  So you put a link up to an article that you assumed everyone knew about, yet you have not even read it yourself?  ???  Am I missing something here?

Page 14-12 - 14-13

In post 125, you say:

"The Peter Davey part of the link to the book only goes to emphasise that this really has nothing at all to do with
anything resonating at 50Hz or 300Hz, 400Hz, or whatever - just simple resistive heating".

You say this is stated on page 12, 13.
Page 12 has 5 paragraphs.
Page 13 has 8 paragraphs.

In which paragraph(s) is the statement made?

   
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In post 125, you say:

"The Peter Davey part of the link to the book only goes to emphasise that this really has nothing at all to do with
anything resonating at 50Hz or 300Hz, 400Hz, or whatever - just simple resistive heating".

You say this is stated on page 12, 13.
Page 12 has 5 paragraphs.
Page 13 has 8 paragraphs.

In which paragraph(s) is the statement made?

Oh, I see now, you're deliberately playing silly-buggers, I thought you were perhaps dyslexic or something. 

If you re-read my post you will see that I never said that anything was stated in the article. I applied my brain to what was written and realised that there was in fact nothing to suggest that it is not simply resistive heating. Ie, there is nothing whatsoever in the article that points to acoustic heating other than people seeing something that is not there - like the 'tuning a bicycle bell to 50hz' nonsense. And we've already covered the 50Hz standing wave claims and binned it. All just wishful thinking allied with ignorance.

   
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Some images of the Tesla Sonic water heating device Here

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8999-peter-daysh-davey-water-heater-query-14.html#post161897

I am trying to figure a way to post them directly here [or link]

Chet

I assume this info comes from the secret Serb who's device you are trying to replicate, to a point whereby you won't settle for anything less than the precise beer can, right?

So I don't get it, you require a 1.725 gap between the can and the ring for this to supposedly work, but as you are finding 1.725mm to be a little tight you are altering this parameter to 2mm! Not only this, but you intend to place mica spacers between the ring and the can so they don't contact each other.  ???  But surely it will be an oscillating movement between the can and the ring that you are trying to achieve... and that just ain't gonna happen if you secure the two together?  

Have you really thought this through?  Have you really any idea of exactly what you are trying to accomplish here in terms of what you expect to happen, and why?  It's all looking a bit slap-stick to me!

Incidentally, where is there any reference to Tesla having made one of these? Did Tesla have a patent for it or anything as I've never come across it.
   
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HHHMMMMMM
If you read My post you will see how I feel about spacers ,and the rest of your comments!
I have to go down To NY on Biz

I want to post slovenias pics here so you can see the device
BTW
I feel the only thing that will suffice is an exact replication!!
Slovenia is having difficulty at this point but he wants the Serbian Gent to see he is Sincere {so do I]
That is the reason for some of the Compromises at this point [and just plain curiosity]

I have another Movie for you from our eastern european friends

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6shXUeFUjQ8&feature=email

Thanks
Chet
   
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Chet:

I caught up on the thread on the other side of the divide!  Slovenia did a preliminary test run!  I am assuming your run is a ways off because I don't think you have anything built yet.

Slovenia is having lots of fun and I am sure you will too.  That's the fun side of it.

You mentioned how you guys will have to focus on measurements after the preliminary runs and all the fun factor stuff, and that's indeed true.

Kenny said this:

Quote
Hi, if you can get the time required to reach the temp increase from a known volume of water and amps used from your 120 volt source I can give you an estimate of the efficiency.

That makes me think of the old Unix fortune cookie message:  "Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, and cut with an axe."

Kenny is making his measurement with an axe.  Of course it's just an estimate like Kenny said, and it will give you some food for thought.  I will be curious to see how you guys make your measurements.  I already thought of a way to do it but my lips are sealed.  You should bring Core into the brainstorming session also.

Now of course, if you are COP 20, measuring with an axe should not make any difference.  Does the Serbian pdf claim COP 20?

I am assuming that Slovenia is following the pdf for his build.  Why would the Serbian dude put the heating ring at the top of the container when hot water rises?  Without agitation, it looks like the heater will create a "temperature inversion" with a layer of hot water sitting on top of a larger volume of cold water.  But doing any agitation will be dangerous and you run a high risk of shorting the ring to the can.

By the way, it's impossible to make a gap of 1.725 mm and I am assuming that's in the Serbian pdf.  You may not realize it, but little things like that erode the Serbian guy's credibility.  Pretending that you can build something with a precision of 1/1000th of a millimeter is just silly.

MileHigh
   
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MH
Yes I know
I have to tell you I could do this tolerance with my Brush plating machine [flea hairs at a time]but you are correct .
   But I'm having fun too ,Can't wait to boil some brew......
As far as the position Slovenia has the device [vertical] thats not what the PDF shows [horizontal]
Good point MH
This run is  in line with Cores  first trial ,just  seat of the pants!!


For your information I spent many years doing material testing for laboratories all over NYC ,I understand test protocol
and the necessity of compiling good data ,that being said in this venue I'm completely out of my element !

So feel free to contribute ..........
Thanks
Chet

   
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You have to think about heat flow and how to overcome it's effects on your measurements!
   
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I have another Movie for you from our eastern european friends

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6shXUeFUjQ8&feature=email

Thanks
Chet

I'd love to know what you are seeing in these videos Chet.  Certainly there is nothing close to even 30lpm shown coming from that bubbler, in fact I'd estimate no more than 1lpm.  And I know he gives the excuse that he does not want to put it on full because he is running it in a building, but why show 11 minutes of video showing pathetic lazy bubbles instead of giving it a couple of seconds on full just to emphasise his claims.  After all he is claiming between 30lpm and 60lpm, which in itself is meaningless unless he provides a figure for the current he is drawing - anyone can produce 60lpm if they drive a suitable electrolyser with enough current. Also, his electrolyser must be runninng very hot and producing a lot of water vapour because look at the condensation mist being produced when the tube is in the air. This in itself suggests very high current draw.

But to top everything off, the best part for me is nothing in the pointless video, but rather the comment underneath it.

QUOTE:
Quote
Friend. How match current amount consumes your circuit? and voltage of sourge?
danielgpalacios 2 days ago
@danielgpalacios ITS SEEN VERY GOOD...THE CIRCUIT PRODUCE AMPS NOT NOT COSUMMING AMPS!!!!

WE USING FORM 0 UP 90 VDC TO RUN THE CIRCUIT AND THE FEULCELL.... WE CAN NOT MEASURE THE VOLTAGE AT THE FEULCELL ,OUR VOLT METER GO'S ONLY TO 500V ....DON'T WANT TO BLOW IT UP ...WE GOING TO DO A TEST IF IT'S WILL RUN ONLY ON A BIG CAPACITOR.....?????THANKS
THEWATERENERGY1 1 day ago


lol. Elements of Fast Freddy's bullshit here. The circuit produces amps not consuming amps?  C.C What?

Then he says that he is using 0 - 90vdc to run the system, but is worried that his 500vdc meter will blow... what?  ???

So he answers this guys comment by saying that he can't say how much current his electrolyser is drawing because he only has a voltmeter that goes up to 500 volts? Double  ???

It would appear his science is every bit as good as his English! Come on Chet, this is all just nonsensical gibberish and pseudoscience from clueless wannabes!

Please Chet, I implore you, pleeeaasse don't make me sit through anymore of these mindnumbingly ridiculous videos... life's just too short.  :'(
   
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