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Author Topic: Serbian Professor Savic Sonic water heater replication COP 12  (Read 294045 times)
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It seems that "Octave" is a term which is
specific to music.

In electricity and electronics it is the same
meaning as "Harmonic" or "Overtone."

(First Overtone = Second Harmonic)

Just wondering...
A string stretched between two points will vibrate normally, and it will vibrate with
two maximums in its length, i.e. with the central point static, a node. This
second way of vibrating will give a note of twice the frequency, i.e. the same note,
but one octave up.

BUT, the string will also vibrate in thirds, such that there is a stationary point, a node, a
third from one end and another a third from the other end. The note will be QUITE DIFFERENT
and this is one of a set of harmonics. This is NO GOOD for Davey work.

As far as Davey thinking goes, the vitally important issue is that the "note" remains
the same as the note of the mains AC. If it is twice the frequency, one octave, or four times
the frequency, two octaves, does not matter. But it needs to be the same note, in
the case of the UK (and NZ), 50hz, the note needs to be roughly "G".

Paul-R
   
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Hi All,

 Detecting neutrinos has been done by several (metal) sheets placed in a stack connected as a capacitor and a high votage charged on the plates just at the point of breakdown. The extra energy from the passing particle causes conduction.
  Dont quote me on this but it has been built and tested deeep underground. cant say where or by who but reported tests were successful.
   
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Yawn, this is getting very boring now, Chet.   C.C  It's all been said, nothing more to say.

This is becoming just another thing you've raved about that ultimately comes to nothing, and contrary to what you preach, yet another project you or others have failed to replicate. Time to put the pudding to the test Chet, or call it a day.
   
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Farrah
This one is about to sprout wings !!
Its gonna take off big time.....................

Chet
PS
MH
you should get a kick out of this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teAksvLyaJ0

apparently Peter D has a little brother Pauly serving some involuntary vacation time in a beautiful downtown S.A. facility
this is how they heat their tea......................

[only kiddin]


« Last Edit: 2011-10-24, 23:01:07 by ramset »
   
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Duncans post was so funny I had to post it here

Quote:


On the outskirts of the sun kissed beaches of S.O.W.A.T.O in South Africa there lies a sweet little multi racial prison known as Diepkloof charmingly nick named “sun city” after Its less less popular name sake the holiday gambling resort Sun city Sun City South Africa |*Sun City South Africa


Normally In the quiet of a summers evening after their cocktails the prisoners in sun city
http://www.iafrikaphotos.co.za/img_u...sipri00092.jpg
whilst waiting for the guard's to bring in their coco and tuck them in, would fancy a cup of tea, being
totally fearless (unlike me) they would make one of these (allegedly) out of the top quality government issued silver spoons https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-m...ober242011.jpg
of course there's a little bit of flex between the handles to stop big bangs!


using a light bulb that had “accidentally” been broken the “quests” would connect the water heater to the light fitting in their luxury suits.
I have the advantage of insulating tape and extension leads and RCDs and plugs and sockets and switches and I'm an electrician to boot, I now, do not find it surprising that South Africa abolished the Death Penalty with prisoners building these bloody things It was probably surplus to requirement.
Even as an electrician I still don’t like this much still for the advancement of science.....
and anyway like South Africa I'm on 240 volts and 50hz here in the UK unlike you Jessie 110 volt guys! Unfortunately I don’t have a temperature probe to hand and I'm certainly not in a lab but in a vague attempt to get some sort of figures I'm using 400ml of iced water in a jam jar (you can still see a few ice cubes floating at the start) and I intend to time it to boiling whilst observing the current.
The video is in real time you can see me plug the contraption in and watch it to boiling point. By all means do your own calculation. I had difficulty focusing the camera on the analogue meter however it is constantly in circuit and set to 10 amps FSD, Its movement is undetectable at the start of the heating cycle, It rises momentary to perhaps 1.75 amps during heating period (Its a poor scale) and drops back down to about 0.3 amps when the water is boiling furiously (strange that) if you watch the mirror reflection you will see it. This is all extremely dangerous children but I would be delighted to hear of this duplicated. bubble.wmv - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teAksvLyaJ0
It also crosses my mind that the two cone arrangement of Peter (providing the cones were air tight) would limit the water to metal contact area even if the thing was totally submerged so saving all those fuses! Although I don’t seem to be getting anything like the current draw of core despite being on 240 volts! The Tuning and harmonics may or may not be a “red herring” well girls and boys video isn't the method for scientific investigation everything here could be a forgery … It isn't! why forge anything that could be duplicated by anyone in 10 minutes? Of course I have to say – don’t ever ever do this.... its suicidal and only done by lunatics who have got fed up being fired out of cannons! BUT....
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« Last Edit: 2011-10-25, 00:22:43 by ramset »
   
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Are you gonna tell us those spoons are tuned to the mains frequency now, Chet?

Of course the water will heat, but everything is uninsulated and so at a dangerous mains voltage, which is why the immersion heating element was invented. You can put your finger in the water in an electric kettle while it is on without fear of electrocution - you wouldn't want to stick your finger in the water in that jam jar! But it's all been said in previous posts and we're just continually repeating ourselves.  This is all just foolish and dangerous nonsense which seems to be getting more and more absurd as this thread continues.

Just to add further to the nonsense, here is a quote from the darkside...

Quote
Message from Mr. "C"

Oct. 29, 2011
Post to forum:
The sonic boiler diameter 65mm = 1 / 4 wavelength of the wave he catches .= = 260mm 65x4 = 1.1530479 MHz wave

So now we have a very specific frequency in the MHz range being brought into the mix... What? ???  For once let's be honest here, you folk don't have a clue what you are doing or what you are talking about, and it's quite apparent that neither does, Mr 'C', Prof. Savic, ET or whoever else is spoon feeding you this bullshit! C.C
« Last Edit: 2011-10-30, 11:53:57 by Farrah Day »
   
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 A PLEA??

Un answered.............. there is something about that in History...............?

Chet
« Last Edit: 2011-11-02, 12:29:42 by ramset »
   
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Chet:

I seem to recall a plea from you about how to establish a measurement baseline for the thermal stuff.  That's something for you to discuss with the other participants in the threads on EF and OU.  After all, that's what this experiment is all about.  Also, I am not an expert and I'm not here to hold anybody's hand with respect to thermal matters.

What I can say is that in all of the postings I have seen with preliminary water temperature measurements, there hasn't been one serious word spoken about how to really do your thermal measurements.

Good luck,

MileHigh
   
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MH
I don't want to hold hands............

I do want to do proper Measurements ,I purchased a few items that you recommended.
A killowatt meter and a resistance heater ,Some very smart and learned fellows are getting into the mix!!
My plan is to Plug the resistance heater into the killowatt meter and warm 1 liter of water
Note the  Start temp
heat for 10 minutes
Note the power consumed and the finish Temp.

This will establish a baseline for Resistance heating ,then people should be able to run similar tests with the Device and compare speed to heat?

Hows this sound for starters??
I plan on doing this test tonight and posting it on Energetic ?

Thanks
Chet
PS
Comments or recommendations will be appreciated from anyone?
   
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Chet:

A few things that I can add include that you want your water container to be as thermally isolated as possible.  Sitting it on a piece of Styrofoam should do it for you. 

Your don't really have control over the thermal mass of the vessel holding the water, but in the ideal case it would be as low as possible.  For example, a glass with a thin bottom would be much better than a class with a thick bottom.  In theory you can factor in the thermal mass of the vessel but also in theory it's not necessary based on the COP claims.

What's most important is that you guys start talking about these issues.

When the COP claims are all disappointing I am wondering how "Mr. C." will react.  Will he just *poof* himself out of existence or will he fall back to the "replication not accurate" argument.  I know that all of you are having fun but you are all being taken for a ride.

MileHigh
   
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Your don't really have control over the thermal mass of the vessel holding the water, but
 in the ideal case it would be as low as possible.  For example, a glass with a thin bottom
would be much better than a class with a thick bottom.
This is excellent thinking for determining a precise COP, i.e. working out whether the
COP is 3.4 or 3.7

At the moment, we could ignore the thermal mass of the vessel so long as the water
is most of the mass of what gets heated, and the process is relatively quick, a minute
or two, since heat will be lost by radiation.

The real key is having two bells which ring well, and which ring as accurately as possible
to the local AC mains frequency - or an octave of this.
   
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1st I brought you a movie MH @all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6QHIS34Ymw
---------------------------------------------------------

Repost from energetic

80 watts to raise 5 liters 13.5C /10 min
Had to use a bigger pail than one liter, used a 5 liter pail .
ran the resistance heater for ten minutes [constant stirring] starting temp was 16c, killowatt meter registered .08 watts, finish temp 29.5C

Benchmark for resistance type heat!
displacement: 5 liters
Time : 10 minutes
Total power: 80 watts
Temp rise : 13.5C

Tomorrow I will play with the container size to get it to 1 liter,I will test any size/time you want for your particular rig..............


Chet
PS
I believe this to be an excellent format for this Testing?
suggestions welcome we want to do this right!!
If this device works as advertised this will become very obvious and the testing should not have to be flawless??

--------------------------------------
MH excellent suggestions
Thank you
Chet
« Last Edit: 2011-11-04, 02:24:19 by ramset »
   
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The clip was the same old stuff.  All wrong, the path of delusion.
   
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It's turtles all the way down
How I would do it:

Procure a small immersible fountain pump such as is sold by Harbor Freight.

http://www.harborfreight.com/158-GPH-Miniature-Submersible-Fountain-Pump-68396.html?utm_medium=cse&utm_source=bingshopping&hft_adv=40014&mr:referralID=38e644d8-06e8-11e1-931b-001b2166c2c0

Procure a vessel that will hold the desired amount of water, say 1 Liter.

Place the immersion pump into the vessel. The output of the pump connects to the inlet of the Davey device (DUT).

The outlet of the Davey device goes back to the vessel.

Place a thermometer or thermo measuring instrument into the vessel. Measure ambient temp with a second thermometer.

Run the pump with with no power applied to the DUT get a baseline temperature. The pump can be plugged into the Kill A Watt Meter to account for it's thermal contribution. There should be a slight temperature rise over ambient. Note the power being input.

When the system has stabilised, reset the Kill A Watt meter, and turn on power to the DUT (also plug into Kill A watt meter)

Run for sufficient time to get a reasonable temperature rise over the baseline.

End of this test. Note total elapsed power. You can subtract out the baseline power or leave it in if you do the same thing for step 2.

Step 2: After the system has cooled to the baseline (pump always running) Repeat the test with no power to the DUT and using an immersion heater in the outboard vessel, plugged into the Kill A Watt meter. How long did it take to achieve the same temperature rise. What was the elapsed power input.

There are simple variations on the above, such as how you factor in baseline power, but the system will be constantly stirred by the immersion pump and you will always have a reasonable flow in and out of the DUT.

You could also ignore the thermal contribution of the pump motor and just use the equilibrium baseline temperature with the pump running continuously i.e. there will be thermal losses to the environment that will balance with the heat input from the pump, settling at some baseline value. This is your starting point for both tests.

You get the idea.
« Last Edit: 2011-11-04, 14:33:57 by ION »


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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No time now to read
repost from Energetic


@All
The 1 liter test brought up something unusual


Displacement        1 liter
Time                   1 min
Total power         10 watts
Temp rise            7.4 degrees C

Notes : Due to proximity of heat element to container sides  sample was AGGRESSIVELY agitated for the entire test.

5 liter test was GENTLY stirred,

This needs to be explored much more for obvious reasons!!

Much more testing tonight!

------------------------------------------------
Ion
Thanks for the thoughts and the very good contribution!

At this moment all testing is being done with Resistance heat!!

It seems the water movement is a big issue!!
More testing tonight..............
Thanks again
Chet
« Last Edit: 2011-11-04, 21:26:38 by ramset »
   
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Well as soon as I posted some numbers at energetic
I had some folks do Math .............
Now Professor Savic has commented [the math was wrong [Very}]
As well as the instruments / technique for calculating .

This has just gotten much better!! [this guy knows his stuff]

\More to follow

Chet
   
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...
repost from Energetic

@All
The 1 liter test brought up something unusual

Displacement        1 liter
Time                   1 min
Total power         10 watts
Temp rise            7.4 degrees C
...

Power for a 7.4c rise of the temperature of 1 liter:
P = 1000 * 7.4 * 4.184/60 = 516W

=>  COP=51,6

Not bad...
With such a huge COP, it is easy to loop the circuit with a Stirling engine driving an alternator...

   
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Chet:



Your concerns about the graph are well founded because the graph makes no sense at all.

That's the death knell of "Mr. 'C'" - can you hear the sound of the ringing?

I don't want to spoil your fun but I'm assuming that at some point someone is going to have had enough and challenge Mr. "C."  It's starting to feel like another "social experiment."

MileHigh
   
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MH
There is word in the background [not on the forum] from someone who has been feverishly playing with this and wishes to remain anonymous!
It is THAT device which I will be replicating ,The stainless thermos from ikea being the chassis ?

Heck MH I'm still having fun !!

@Exnihiloest
I just did the test ,I have No idea whatsoever how to do the math you have shown ,Or what it means........
The only thing I can do is use this time to heat as a Half assed baseline  for this new device??
I thank you Gentlemen for taking the time to respond !!

I will start building the device which I am told goes off the chart in COP tomorrow [once I get the specs]

Thank you
Chet
PS
BTW
I will be posting test data on the device as well as following ION's test procedure as closely as possible [for comparison]
   
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@Exnihiloest
I just did the test ,I have No idea whatsoever how to do the math you have shown ,Or what it means........
...

I can't believe it  :). I have just calculated the "academic" power to raise by 7.4 celsius degrees the temperature of 1 liter of water, in 1 minute. And the result is 516W, i.e. 51.6 times the power that you gave previously (10 W), therefore 51.6 is the COP of your possible OU setup.

Here is a simple method:
You need around 70 W/minute, by liter and by degree.
You just have to multiply. For instance, to raise by 17 celsius degrees 0.5 liter of water, you need a power of 70 * 17 * 0.5 = 595 W during 1 minute.
(or you would need 595/3 W during 3 minutes, or 595*2 W during 1/2 minute and so on...)

   
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Exnihiloest
Thank you for explaining!!
A question, Where is unity for heating water?? Is that possible to answer?? Is there Data available to show this ?
A super Duper line in the sand where once it is crossed ti becomes obvious that something unusual is taking place??

Thank you
Chet
PS
I'll be posting more tests  in the next few days ,this time of the devices performance.
   
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Testing question??
I am getting prepared to run some tests on 220 volts.

Since this will be a pure resistance application how will I test this without buying a special killowatt meter?
  Can I just use 2 110 V killowatt meters one on each leg and then connect them to the device on the other side?? [phasing issues??]  ???
Of course I'll just add total watts consumed together for my input power.
Am I making sense here ?
Comments please

Thanks
Chet
PS
I am actually building two devices that run this way one is a 110 device  the other is a replication from an anonymous experimenter of Savics boiler but made from stainless and running on 220 here

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8999-peter-daysh-davey-water-heater-query-33.html
« Last Edit: 2011-11-12, 21:34:36 by ramset »
   

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You may find this report interesting.



---------------------------
"The best teachers are those who show you where to look, but don't tell you what to see." - Alexandra k. Trenfor.
   
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Dumped
Thank you for the link ,very cool ![or hot]
Thanks to the fellows here I have a fairly acceptable test Procedure!!
And I am having fun...............
The Savic device is going up to Bat shortly!!

Here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8999-peter-daysh-davey-water-heater-query-33.html
Chet
PS
 Farrah ......... and Grumpy
I build Now !!
   
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Test of new setup!
Hi,

Daemanbarts replication
 please look and comment [Math??]

------------------------------------

50 liter of water rise 30 deg celsius in one h, = 1500 X 4,18 = 6270 kJ
6270 / 3600 = 1,74 kWh

Input energy 360W = 360 Wh = 0.360 kwH

COP = 1,74 / 0,360 = 4,83

True COP = 4,83 X 1,2 = 5,8 (I have about 20% loss from test tank)

This setup based on IKEA thermos.

Kind rgds D
   
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