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Author Topic: Serbian Professor Savic Sonic water heater replication COP 12  (Read 294181 times)
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HHHMMMM
Farrah
This is why I love you ............ You're so smart ,well educated and you have experience in at least two of the fields necessary to evaluate this device.... once you get a chance to see it "Do what It do"!!

The device I'm speaking of, as well as the person whom I speak with,are not a beer can or professor Savic!!
No info or formulas for "How its done" are anywhere to be found on Energetic...
Yes it did evolve from the Can

But its quite "Evolved" and very Cool [well hot actually].

I hope you will be pleasantly surprised!!

@EM
I believe ultimately we will get what witts has with this one!!

THX
Chet

 
   
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OK Ladies and Angrymen,    (as opposed to Gentlmen)    :D


I read this article about Mr. Griggs  Hydrosonic pump:    http://www.rexresearch.com/griggs/griggs.htm

and I came to the conclusion that the use of electricity directly in the water, to cause cavitation, is a better method, because if we use a motor like Mr Grigs does,  the motor has ineficiencies.   But if electricity is used directly to heat the water,  all the heat delivered through resistance heating is applied to the water.

So,  to perfect such a water heater device,  it is imperative that as much CAVITATION  as possible should be created from the flow of electricity.   So now it makes sense that we should have electrodes that vibrate as wildly as possible, as Farrah Day suggested, or use some other transducer method like Mr Thrapp's perhaps, but overall, we want to cause as much cavitation as possible.    

Also note that in the article posted, they mention the cleaning effect on the metal surfaces, which again makes me wonder if pitting of the surface is taking place thus releasing energy from the metalic bonds directly into the water.   In this case the "FUEL" is the metal casing of the device itself, and no it would not have an "indefinite" life, but a limited life.    So could we patent a disposable water heater?    

No, you can't patent that, it's my idea!    ;D   :D    (all rights reserved!)    :o  8)

EM
   
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I found a paper that calculated some atomic bond energies, not of pure metals, but close enough to get an idea.    http://www.wag.caltech.edu/publications/sup/pdf/208.pdf


If you look at table II,   we notice for FeH+,   that the bond energy is about  55 kcal/mole.     There is a lot of energy if we break all the bonds in a mole of iron and H ion.  


For the sake of argument:   Let's say it takes 100 kcal/mol of energy to break all the bonds in a mole of solid Iron.     Now,  how much energy is that, and how much is a mol?

From the periodic table,  a mole of Fe, or Iron,  weighs   55.85 grams.  Using the density of Iron,  7.874 g/cm^3,     we have a volume of:   55.85/7.874 =  7.1  cm^3,   or a small cube of about 2 cm on each side.  (2x2x2=8cm^3, so slightly bigger then our number, but close enough)

So vaporizing or totaly obliterating such a small cube of material by violent cavitation processes, should yield a caloric heat value on the order of 100 kcal.    How much energy is that?   or rather how much can the temperature of water change from such energy input?

Let's assume a liter of water, and calculate the temperature difference.   Water's specific heat is 1cal/g/deg C, so 100 kcal, would raise one gram of water by 100 thousand deg C (if prevented from boiling obviously but imposible at these levels of heat injection)      If we talk in terms of a liter of water,    (1 liter = 1000 grams)  then 100 kcal would raise 1 liter of water by 100 deg C.    

To put this in perspective, this can bring 1 liter of water from 0 deg C  (freezing) to 100 deg C  (boiling) temperature

Now that is awesome!      Who's going to be the first to congratulate me on this amazing breakthrough!    LOL    ;D   :D  

Mystery Solved!    8)

EM
   
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I found a paper that calculated some atomic bond energies, not of pure metals, but close enough to get an idea.    http://www.wag.caltech.edu/publications/sup/pdf/208.pdf

If you look at table II,   we notice for FeH+,   that the bond energy is about  55 kcal/mole.     There is a lot of energy if we break all the bonds in a mole of iron and H ion.  
...
To put this in perspective, this can bring 1 liter of water from 0 deg C  (freezing) to 100 deg C  (boiling) temperature

Now that is awesome!      Who's going to be the first to congratulate me on this amazing breakthrough!    LOL

Don't put the cart before the horse  :). Your point is interesting, we could tap the bond energy. Now, the bond energy (as that given in the tables of the paper) is the heat required to break one Mole of molecules into their individual atoms. The creation of bonds is exothermic and releases energy, not the break.
And if your idea is to break the bonds with less energy than the bond energy, then the system should cool by absorbing the complementary energy from the environment. It could be also very interesting but not in the way you are expecting.

   
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Quote
I believe ultimately we will get what witts has with this one!!

Chet:

From that Witts water heater clip:

Quote
A stainless steel sphere with 1.7 gallons of water starts at 101 degrees F and rises to 184 degrees F in two minutes from 1.62 watts input from a 9 volt battery supplying .18 amps.

Normally 1.7 US gallons of water would require 10,296 watts of energy at 100% efficiency to be raised from 101 to 184 degrees F in 2 minutes. This is super efficient at over 6000 X more heat from the input of electricity.

There are no catalysts, heavy water or other exotic materials required as in cold fusion and no harmful radiation is released. The stimulus for this research & development was John Keely's Sympathetic Vibratory Physics using frequencies in combination with shapes of materials.

In that clip you never "see" the water temperature at the start of the "test."  The water could have started off in a beaker where the person puts a digital thermometer in the water and shows the temperature and even puts their fingers in the water.  Then they pour the water into the spherical container and start the "heating process."  Of course even that could be faked all that you need to do is a seamless video edit but that's probably too difficult for the Witts boys to do.

Instead all that you see is what appears to be the Witts guy pouring hot water into a bucket at the end of the clip.   The clip starts off with the water already inside the sphere.

The conclusion Chet is that the water was already hot at the start of the test.

It just baffles me that you apparently can be led to believe nonsense like this.  You may as well have a Post-It note on your forehead that says, "Steal my money."

Not to mention that the Witts boys come off as totally uneducated electronics country bumpkins that know how to stack hay but have no clue whatsoever with respect to electronics or energy.  In other words, the same deal as the Serbian "professor" and Fast Freddy and Aaron and hundreds of others pitching crackpot free energy schemes.

A recent comment from one of the Witts boys from that infamous clip:

Quote
@42apostate We do offer teachings for anyone who wants to build the heater. See Our website. Gifts page. First Gift

You make reference to people not participating in the EF thread that are "researching" the sonic water heater.  My guess is that they are either deluded or they are conning you.

Finally, about that pic of the little kid holding the "professor's" corroded water heater attached to two wires.  That looks like an electrocution waiting to happen if you are not careful.  That point was raised at the beginning of this thread and it's worth mentioning again.

It's like the EF thread is a match made in heaven.  On one side you have the clueless free energy con artist pitch men and on the other side you have the over unity enthusiast zombies that want so desperately to believe that you can say or do anything and they keep coming.  It's like a slow-motion schlock B-movie horror film.

MileHigh
   
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I think the WITTs water heater or Hemisphere Quantum Fuelless Generator
are a natural for the PhysicsProf to do a though analysis ,there both free energy,LOL. O0
   
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I said that I wouldn't quote anymore from the EF thread but I am going to cave in:

Here are the comments from the Serbian "professor" about his latest creation:

Quote
Stats on Professor Savic Peter Davey Device

Last night I measured the vapor sonic boiler with the electrode in the form of a ball and cup at the top. The ball resonates at 900 Hz and 400 Hz in the cup with maximum current of 3.6 Amp and 1.2 Amp minimum. The voltage was 228 V; vapor 53.9 g during grejanja.360 seconds. The initial amount of water in 298ml Court; the initial water temperature 20 degrees Celsius, and final temperature of 100 degrees. COP = 2.25 Celsius

NOTE, I did not take into account the heat capacity of the heater and the court or the emission of heat from the court.. So COP is greater than this number.
No electrodes inside the ball as the originals because they have no hard steel so that it could be as at 0.1mm. This further increases to 2:57.
The ball is in my cup the positive electrode and negative.

Publish this on forum.

"COP = 2.25"

By the way, "grejanja" is Serbian for "heating."  So perhaps the proper translation in the middle of the text is, "The voltage was 228 VAC; steam production of 53.9 grams during 360 seconds of heating."

The problem is that there is no input energy measurement data.  Yet nobody on the EF thread has anything to say about this.  Similarly, how does the "professor" increase the COP to 2.57.  One more time, there is no data.

We also know that it is extremely difficult to measure a relatively small amount of AC input energy over a short period of time unless you have a full DSO setup or something akin to that.  I will assume that the Serbian dude does not have any sophisticated equipment.  If he did we would most likely have been told about it a long time ago.

My conclusion is that the Serbian "professor's" "data" is pure garbage and anybody that reads what he posted that is reasonably astute should arrive at the same conclusion.

MileHigh
   
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MH
With all respect to professor Savic
I have not been speaking about his rendering of this Tech for at least a month or more!

Nor his first device [the one Banislav is holding in the PIC] that lead him to spend years researching and building until it got to the basic shape of the Can and the small drive ring in Slovenias PDF's!

The real issue at the moment   ... the single biggest issue in the way of Open Source is

How do you release something Open Source and not get a knock on the door a few weeks later telling you to cease and desist you are violating a new patent ,one that has just been released
[after it was seen here on the internet ]

How do you prevent some Scum from patenting your idea and locking your own door on you??

HOW???
You yes I must add Thats assuming they would ever Grant a patent in the first place [or Seize it]

Chet
PS
Exnihiloest
A few observations from experiments [not Savics ] .at first the cans would start to disappear in a few hours, Savic said they were not properly tuned... If resonance was achieved this would stop happening !
Well a new tuning rig came into the equation and a new material [after Savic asked for help getting Titanium sheets and a big signal generator]


So the Can path was put aside

A self tuning rig was devised with proprietary hardware running a stainless rig [at this point an ikea thermos Mod]
Observations
A funny smell almost instantly upon switch on ? [no Ozone ]
An extreme loss of water with no real condensation around ?

Bubbles that seem to stay for hours and hours  after switch off ,on the surface and in the water!
Now a slight sound can be heard thru the manifold ? [from the latest much smaller rendering ]

EXnihiloest
Suppose its possible to achieve this condition you describe above ....The molecule bonds weakening and yielding ....suppose the professor found a way thru the unique architecture .. power and Resonance to manifest this condition with less input power than we thought possible??

The recombining heat would be the Source of our Heat here!
Oh ,And there is no deterioration of any of the components for at least 10 weeks now!

@ALL
HOW do we keep the bad guys from Steeling things??[with out going for a patent that could be denied for security reasons]

THX
Chet
« Last Edit: 2012-01-04, 12:52:05 by ramset »
   
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Chet:

"Years of researching and building" makes me laugh.  You are blind.  The Serbian guy has no credibility.  He bitch-slaps the Archduke of Austria for fun.

Quote
How do you release something Open Source and not get a knock on the door a few weeks later telling you to cease and desist you are violating a new patent ,one that has just been released
[after it was seen here on the internet ]

I am not an expert on patents.  Am I to assume that this is a patent for an "over unity heater" but the patent is not worded like that because the US patent office won't accept patents for allegedly over unity devices?

From what I understand you are free to replicate and test any patent no problem.  What you can't do is build and sell a device for profit without the approval of the patent holder.

Assuming this is true then I have a suggestion.  Build and test the thing and co crazy.  You can talk about it and build it no problem, nobody can stop you.  You are not "violating" anything by doing this.

Perhaps I am missing something here but perhaps not.

Build and test the thing and share the results.  Of hire somebody to build and test the thing and share the results.

You will find out that the patent is bullshit and then try to turn the page and move on to something else.  Try to get the people on the EF to do the same thing.

This whole thing is completely crazy.  For the sake of humanity just try to prove the thing actually works first and forget all about the patent business.  It sounds like somebody is playing you with this patent issue.

You won't believe me but there is nothing going on here no matter what version or variation you are talking about.  You have no hard reproducible data at all proving this works, just some people over the Web and in email or on the phone yanking your chain.  I give up again.

MileHigh
   

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tExB=qr
"COP = 2.25" fits nicely with "acoustic heat pump".
   
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MH
So you are saying[just for clarity]
Go ahead collect the seeds     Sow the ground... water nurish harvest ... mix, blend, prepare, cook   get everything just right
and then let some shmuck steel it eat it and lock you and everyone else out of the Kitchen!!

Nice model for OU .........
NEXT!!

@G
Cop 7 ATM

Chet
   
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Chet, if this thing works, and has worked from the start, then why is it being continually redesigned with the specifications continually changing, before anyone has even verified the claims of the initial design? I mean you all talk about resonance but you folk haven't a clue what it really implies. Something is not at resonance simply because it vibrates - and you guys now claim to be tuning the device to 3 new frequencies.  C.C So how does that exactly work in terms of resonance?  ??? (need banging head against wall smilie)

Like MH, and many of us have said from the start, this is plain crazy, dangerous and indeed quite pointless given the education of those of you playing with this stuff. And sadly, Chet, you are fast becoming the leading promoter of all the most mindless garbage the internet has to offer. Is that really anything to be proud of?  :-[

It's like you never, ever, ever learn, Chet.  You never bother to educate yourself and worse still, you fail miserably to learn from past mistakes regarding incredible OU claims.  You are as susceptible to scams and cons now as you were when you first appeared on these forums - it's like you have a 'NAIVE and GULLIBLE' default setting and you are automatically reset to this before jumping on the next bandwagon that comes along.

Chet, given your stubborn grip on blind faith and ignorance, and your casual dismissal of real science, you really do make intelligent conversation impossible. :(





   

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Once again
We are not discussing HERE the savic rendering .....There are No three different frequencies ETC ETC being discussed [nor implied]......... No Neutrino's
Nor any improvements being discussed beyond the move away from using a beer can!

So You folks come here to discuss things for industry ??
To sell and make money??
To Patent ?
Or does anyone here have any idea how to open source a device with out patenting??

If this can be covered here [how to Open Source ]....We can stop all the silly "I'm smarter than you ....you couldn't possibly be doing something I don't understand Talk"!!

And get this Done [Vetted]



Chet
PS
Grumpy
The man I'm speaking with Lives, Eats, Breathes and Poops Heat Pumps for a long Time..... He is UP on the tech as well as every  inductive  ...resistive type water heater you could imagine
This thing is Blowing his Mind [and others]

Some questions

Experimenting!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi!

With a new setup I use to generate steam, I can see steam have a colour of yellow and light brown. Also it smells a little chlorine.

What does this tell 

If I put my steam beam in to propane flame, the flame change to 100% blue and gets alot hotter and longer 

I have alot of heat also in water surrounding my steam generator 

I am running device on ac, around 100 Hz.

I can not ignite the steam (or what it is) alone.

Does anyone have an idea ?

Kind rgds
« Last Edit: 2012-01-04, 17:24:45 by ramset »
   
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@FarrahDay
Quote
Chet, given your stubborn grip on blind faith and ignorance, and your casual dismissal of real science, you really do make intelligent conversation impossible.
Real science?, I have to wonder what it is you are referring to, is it when one person calls another person ignorant to the facts when in fact they have none themselves?, is it when they say there is no proof when in fact there is no proof one way or the other? or is it when something everyone has flaunted as a proven fact for decades is proven to be false?. I'm not sure I understand what your point is considering the facts, that is that we have none, which as you may know is not proof of anything one way or the other.
As well if we are going to preach to others about blind faith, ignorance and real science then at the very least we should heed our own words and to be honest I think you are just as misguided as anyone else here considering your posts.
A lack of proof is not proof of anything one way or another and a scientific theory such as those we see in science are just that a theory which persons hope will continue to be accurate in the future despite the fact that history has shown otherwise. I think that if we are going to hold others to a certain standard then at the very least we should meet that standard ourselves.
Regards
AC


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Farrah
You are the best Chemist I know
Can you shed some light here [pretty please]

Experimenting questions?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi!

With a new setup I use to generate steam, I can see steam have a colour of yellow and light brown. Also it smells a little chlorine.

What does this tell 

If I put my steam beam in to propane flame, the flame change to 100% blue and gets alot hotter and longer 

I have alot of heat also in water surrounding my steam generator 

I am running device on ac, around 100 Hz.

I can not ignite the steam (or what it is) alone.

Does anyone have an idea ?

Kind rgds D
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@  bullies,

please,  let’s stop bothering Chet.  He's just a messenger.

I personally appreciate his periodic updates from other forums, regardless of my personal opinions.  If you want to debate with the original dudes then feel free to create an account on those other forums and have at it.    



@exnihiloest

If I understand you correctly you are saying that breaking the chemical bonds should be considered an endothermic reaction because it requires energy.      You are correct.   Ok, scratch that ideal!   LOL    ;D

 This is what I was thinking.    We obviously need to inject energy to break bonds, no doubt about that.  But once the threshold level is achieved, the bond “snaps” and breaks, and releases some extra energy.    Perhaps what I’ve calculated is just the energy it takes to break the bonds but not the “intrinsic” energy released upon bond breakage.

I also found a new website with physical properties for Iron, and it turns out I guessed very close to the actual value I was looking for.   http://www.chemicool.com/elements/iron.html

 HEAT OF ATOMIZATION for Iron = 415 kJ/mol  x ( 1 cal/4.184 J) = 99.2 kcal/mol,  and I assumed 100 kcal/mol

This is very close to calculating how much heat it takes to raise a mol of Iron to its melting point, than boiling temperature, and then add to that value the Heat of Vaporization and Heat of Fusion, and you get very close to this “atomization” value.  
« Last Edit: 2012-01-04, 22:02:47 by EMdevices »
   
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Farrah
If I have Mr.puddims play you a nice song will you give a quick opinion??

Hi!

With a new setup I use to generate steam, I can see steam have a colour of yellow and light brown. Also it smells a little chlorine.

What does this tell 

If I put my steam beam in to propane flame, the flame change to 100% blue and gets alot hotter and longer 

I have alot of heat also in water surrounding my steam generator 

I am running device on ac, around 100 Hz.

I can not ignite the steam (or what it is) alone.

Does anyone have an idea ?

Kind rgds




More Info on conditions and strangeness!!

Neutral, city water and nothing added!

I have no breakdown whatsoever!

The smell is not exactly chlorine but similar, acid in some way  

My configuration gives steam a little pressure!

Also after switch off, water stays warm a very long time, 12 litres was still 30 deg C after 6 h in open bucket and air temp around was 5 deg C. At switch off water was 60 deg C. So 30 deg C in 6 h ?

During night I will compare with water heated in normal way, same litres and same temps, that will give some interesting result I think  

Kind rgds D

   
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Quote
please,  let’s stop bothering Chet.  He's just a messenger.

I'm not bothering him... he's bothering me!  And, No, he's not just a messenger, EM, he's fast - and no doubt naively - becoming a first class misinformation agent!

Quote
Farrah
You are the best Chemist I know
Can you shed some light here [pretty please]

Chet, you even have this wrong. I'm not a chemist... and how do you expect anyone to shed any light on such a ridiculously small snippet of information? And who the hell is, D?

Quote
Once again
We are not discussing HERE the savic rendering .....There are No three different frequencies ETC ETC being discussed [nor implied]......... No Neutrino's
Nor any improvements being discussed beyond the move away from using a beer can!

Then what exactly ARE we discussing, Chet?  Which then, of the multiple renderings are you personally alluding to?  There appears even to be confusion within the ranks on EF then, as a new renderings are popping up every day – are any of you even on the same page?

And, perhaps it is just me, but there seems to be a good clue to whom and what is being implied in the title of this thread.

Chet - and I’m really doing my best to be nice here - has it really not occurred to you that these devices (two bike bells, two spoons, beer cans, etc) are simply crude water heaters made from any old parts on hand?  Crude but effective ways to heat water when a mains power supply is available, but no electric heating element (kettle, etc) is available.  Something that has the benefit of working at any old mains voltage, but still simply a poor mans kettle element, that you folk have latched onto as being a new device with mysterious properties. Really, Chet, don’t you see any of this?
   
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Chet:

How about this for a clean slate:

So you have a friend that claims he or she is showing COP = 7.  I am assuming that this friend is not on the EF thread and you are convinced that he/she is on to something.  I will also assume that this might be the person that you are agonizing about the patent issue with.

Unfortunately, based on the track record, I am going to also assume that you only have anecdotal evidence about this person's claims.

So how about we vet this person's claim right here?  We don't have to see the device, he or she can submit a picture of the setup and simply put a piece of cardboard in front of the device itself.  What we want to see is the setup and the input and output power (or more likely energy) measurements and how they are measured and calculated.  The actual device can be a black box as far as everyone is concerned.

I will repeat, we do not have to see the device at all.  Assuming that they are willing to have their claim vetted, then there is no reason for this person to balk.  No one will see the device itself and the patent information will remain privy to this person.

Does that sound fair enough?  Let's see if there is any substance behind the COP 7 claim.  This is the real thing Chet, we are looking for real, credible measurements and you can expect real feedback from the people in this forum.

If a miracle happens and you are told it all seems to look good, so much the better for you.  If it looks like junk, then you will be told it is junk.  You can decide if you want to move on and look at the next prospect that comes along.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2012-01-04, 22:04:56 by MileHigh »
   
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It's turtles all the way down
Without good "build and test" documentation control e.g. in the form of a pdf with titles and REV numbers, people are hopelessly doomed to running in circles of confusion.

The document would need a good description and pertinent engineering info, such as intents and purposes, detailed build info, timing diagrams,  detailed test setup description and lots of I/O test data.

Links to other sites etc. is one of the worst ways to control and document info, as links become dead after a while.

I refuse to take most of the stuff on OU sites as credible until people can get their act together and present information properly, and in a paper worth the time to read or build from.





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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
Another way is to show at least something and give quick answers to any and all questions.


---------------------------
   
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Hi
My name is Chet I want a clean Slate


---------------------------------------------
I'll give him a ring??
THX
Chet
« Last Edit: 2012-01-04, 22:29:55 by ramset »
   
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Chet:

Sounds great and I did a little edit to my last posting:

<<< What we want to see is the setup and the input and output power (or more likely energy) measurements and how they are measured and calculated. >>>

MileHigh
   
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MH
In the long run this should help this cause considerably ....as people are getting together to help this become Open source !!

No luck tonight I'll try again tomorrow .

THX
Chet
   
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