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Author Topic: Serbian Professor Savic Sonic water heater replication COP 12  (Read 294046 times)
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Mh
Shock and awe ??

Theres no electronics on this bench!![at the most basic level],I know you think its junk science ...
But I believe it works on Pressure ...I was talking to a friend today with a working device ,he thinks its a pressure event too ...

A squeeeeeze of the molecules till they blow apart ... Then when they come back together they create this excess heat?
His tubes are making noise now ....Like bizzy little bees..

Water hammer ....Hydrodynamic cavitation ... the pistol shrimp

All these yield a strange event... a scientific anomaly 
the water gets beat up, and in the process something starts to happen something that Savic went after with a vengeance ,he spent countless hours sanding and tuning until he got his reward
And Now we have it and some people have taken it beyond the sandpaper tuning stage and evolved it into  the device we will see here soon................

Theres no magic in resonance ? Unless you get things to Yield with it.... and maintain that state  ... and harvest the "anomoly"

In this case mr.MH the anomoly is staring you right in the face !!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC6I8iPiHT8
Its not psuedo junk crackpot kindergarten science!!
Its a proven event ... reproduced at will by a man with a tuned Beer Can the power of the Mains and resonance!

Shock and Awe................

Chet
   
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PhysicsProf:

I don't experiment but my skill set is quite good.  I am more competent on an electronics test bench than 98% or more of the experimenters that you see on the forums.

I assume that you are mentioning "Q" in reference to the filter quality factor.
 That's ridiculous.  The whole thing is complete nonsense, there is no Q factor, and I was hoping the participants in the thread would figure that out for themselves by doing some test runs but that's not happening.  There isn't a single shred of evidence that this thing works and there is no logical reason whatsoever for it to work.  The technical information and comments from the Serbian "professor" are pseudo technical gibberish and nonsense.  However, you have already endorsed this project.  If I had encountered you for the first time and knowing your background I would have been in complete and total shock but I know better now.

MileHigh

What's ridiculous is your assuming that I'm

Quote
mentioning "Q" in reference to the filter quality factor.


Q, in the context of what I wrote, is the amount of heat energy gained by water, and is mass m of the water being heated multiplied by the specific heat capacity (Cg) multiplied by the change in temperature (final temperature - initial temperature).  

Q = m x Cg x (Tf - Ti)

I wrote, and now after the basic physics tutorial above my intended meaning should be very clear,
Quote
What I like about the sonic boiler approach is that one measures the temperature rise of water, which gives the Q (and from that the output power) rather directly.  One does have to stir the water etc.  -- but the measurement is straightforward.

You erroneously assume and then go on to attack me personally.  I am not interested in your prideful games.

Quote
I don't experiment but my skill set is quite good.  I am more competent on an electronics test bench than 98% or more of the experimenters that you see on the forums. -- MH

I do experiments and have no need of your hubris, MH.

I will work on the experiments and support others doing so, on the sonic boiler and other efforts, and report back here when I'm satisfied, whatever the results turn out to be.  I do not intend to reply to you further until then, MH.

The nice thing about experiments is that they are repeatable and so, ultimately, the data speak for themselves regardless of naysayers.

« Last Edit: 2012-01-03, 07:06:28 by PhysicsProf »
   
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PhysicsProf:

You tried to slip in a derogatory comment that says, "You don't do experiments so you're not credible."  That's a not so subtle attack on me personally.  So I told you in no uncertain terms that I know my way around on an electronics bench.  Based on the experience over the past nine months, we can't say the same for you.

The "physics tutorial" is just the "Third Law" game being played again.  It's a given professor, nearly everybody knows how to relate increased temperature in a mass of water back to energy.  One Calorie of heat raises the temperature of one gram (or cc) of water by one degree Celsius.  4.184 Joules is equivalent to one Calorie of heat.  Did I pass the test prof?  Your posturing with the formula is nonsensical considering we are dealing with water.

Dropping the term "Q" out of thin air without explaining yourself is just posturing on your part.  Yes it is a term used in thermodynamics and I now vaguely remember it from my chemistry courses in junior college in the 1970s.   If you were real you would have explained the context.  Note, at the same time, you have amazingly endorsed this device and the "premise" of the device is that it is based on "resonance."  When it comes to resonance the big buzz word is the "Q factor."  So don't be surprised if most people connected the dots just like I did.

Quote
The nice thing about experiments is that they are repeatable and so, ultimately, the data speak for themselves regardless of naysayers.

"Naysayer" or just a regular person with some education that is able to apply his knowledge?  One would imagine that a magic water heater would have been discovered already within the past 150 years, don't you think?  If it were true, we would be getting our power today from magic resonance steam turbine power plants that run in a closed loop and export free electricity.

An equivalent to this experiment would be to hook up an AC voltage to a resistor and then doing tests to see if the heat dissipation in the resistor is demonstrating any over unity.  It's preposterous.

Note that the Serbian "professor" is now offering to sell "magic" water heaters.  Money has reared its ugly head.

MileHigh
   
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Exnihiloest
...
What used to be considered lunacy is slowly becoming reality!!
Pay attention ,,,Things are different Now!!

Things are not different Now. I hear your speech for 20 years. It has just grown due to Internet, attracting many more egocentric people and con men.
If every thing worked in matter of energy, we would not be here, searching for overunity.

We must point out the promising ideas (for example Rossi's e-cat), as well as we must point out the fakes, the lies, the failures: simple question of intelligence and efficiency in our quest.
There is no exception in the free energy field, it is like every human activity, there are also con men or sick people who never admit they were lying or wrong, in spite of all the reports from experimenters.  It is our duty to dismiss them.

We are convinced that free energy is possible. It is not a reason to be stupid and blind.

   

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MileHigh, you're not doing well in this
discussion.

The Professor wishes to engage in
rigorous scientific evaluation of what
some have reported to be an unusual
phenomenon.

Your efforts to turn the discussion into
high drama are a replay of the now very
familiar tune.

Well, have your fun.  The Professor has
taken and remains upon the high ground.
Your clever attacks will prove futile.

Yes, there is much to be said for "hands on"
experimentation.  It is unfortunate that you've
assumed a position which eschews verification
by personal observation.


---------------------------
"The best teachers are those who show you where to look, but don't tell you what to see." - Alexandra k. Trenfor.
   
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Dumped:

Unfortunately as has happened many times in the past, the people pitching this concept out of Serbia have jaw-droppingly abysmal technical credibility.  It's so bad that it's beyond bad.  It's almost surreal.  Did you see that graph from a month ago?  The whole thing is a complete reality distortion field.  The reaction to this from the people in the thread is just as surreal when nothing in the Serbian proposition is questioned or challenged.  There have been no credible reports of an unusual phenomenon.  The one credible test so far has demonstrated unity.  Common sense and basic physics says that this will not work.  The 60 Hz or 50 Hz excitation may as well be DC excitation, there is no difference between the three relative to this experiment.  There is no wave or frequency phenomenon going on in this experiment, you may as well call it variable DC excitation.

The way to get past this reality distortion field is to do testing and discuss the results.  Once that's done, you are back at square one.  I am just not sure that will ever happen.  If it does get done, the net result is that lots of time and energy will have been expended in the thread, and by the replicators, for nothing.

I think it's reasonable to hold PhysicsProf to a higher standard considering his background but he gobbles up outrageous free energy propositions like jellybeans.

People have to learn how to dismiss nonsensical free energy propositions either out of hand through qualifying the people making the propositions and the propositions themselves, or by doing the real-world testing and reporting the results and discussing them.  That way they raise the bar for the next free energy proposition that comes along.

Just my thoughts.  I am the voice in the wilderness still batting 1000.

MileHigh

PS:  Look at the example of Mylow.  Every time he changed his magnet configuration his magnet motor still magically worked.  Whenever Sterling went to see Mylow he claimed that the MIB showed up the night before and roughed him up and/or took his magnet motor away.  It was almost like the narrative was screaming at the common sense part of you telling you that this was all fake, a lie, nothing fit, it didn't make sense.

You have to use your common sense and your education and also trust your instincts in life to make good decisions.  Sometimes you have to make a decision to move on and cut the chaff out of your life.  You can't be spinning around in circles going nowhere all the time.  This Serbian water heater is pure chaff, nothing more than noise.  It's a good life skill, qualifying all the information that is being thrown at you from all directions and separating the seed from the chaff.
   
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Heh Heh...
MH
Battin a thousand on the low ground ,Busier than a one legged man in a but kicking Contest!!

A long time ago you promised me you would tell me all about how the pistol shrimp causes a 9900C sonoluminesence event in water.. with nothing more than a well shaped claw and a well timed snap from his itty bitty muscle?
Here we have the Horse power of the mains a design built Tube and the solid pressure of well tuned RESONANCE ..............

??

I propose this well documented"pressure event" is whats going on here!
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC6I8iPiHT8
You have the floor ........[or the high ground :!}
Chet
PS
While your doin your home work Google Hydrosonic cavitation [documented ou effect] and   water hammer also
« Last Edit: 2012-01-03, 13:43:42 by ramset »
   
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It's turtles all the way down
ex said:

Quote
There is no exception in the free energy field, it is like every human activity, there are also con men or sick people who never admit they were lying or wrong, in spite of all the reports from experimenters.  It is our duty to dismiss them.

MH said:
Quote
It's a good life skill, qualifying all the information that is being thrown at you from all directions and separating the seed from the chaff.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Regarding purported OU devices,  it takes good instincts coupled with lots of bench experience. A solid understanding of electronics fundamentals won't hurt, but will help with the "separation" process.

99.99% of all the OU buzzwords are smoke and mirrors. What is needed is less talk and a provable, repeatable simple OU science experiment, including the rigorous data to support the claim.

A lot of the hot air generated on OU forums could power a third world country.

my 2 milliJoules worth


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Chet, it seems that you folk can't even decide how this 'boiler' is supposed to work, as you all appear to have totally different takes on it.

You, Chet, keep linking to that bloody Pistol Shrimp (have you got shares in Pistol Shrimps), the Prof. explains it by neutrinos and radio frequencies, Slovenia struggles with why depicting anodes and cathodes is an issue if your supply is ac, and Cherryman (bless him), is now likening it to an instantaneous electric shower!  ???

So Chet, are you totally dismissing the great Prof's neutrino explanation in favour of cavitation?  How did he take it? :)

Are none of you at all concerned by the fact that the boiler keeps changing?  We started off with 50/60Hz and 300/400Hz, but now the latest picture depicts 350Hz, 49Hz and 1000Hz... no, wait a minute it has just changed again, it's now 450Hz, 49Hz and 900Hz... C.C  Do any of you know just what these frequencies are even supposed to represent?  And where in heaven has 49Hz now been plucked from??

All these fancy ideas and absurd theories, yet none of you are even considering simple resistive heating. Why?

Of course, the default idiot defence of these devices and outrageous claims, is that intelligent and educated people are too narrow-minded, too set in their ways and too constrained by classical science to grasp new ideas. However, back in the real world, this is completely untrue. The problem here is that there is never any conclusive evidence or supporting science to back up these claims, never any indisputable proof, just misplaced faith and wishful thinking - which has no place in science for many of us.

Chet, your history of jumping on every passing bandwagon and then being a champion for the cause, irrespective of the fact that there is never any conclusive evidence or supporting science, really is starting to wear a bit thin now. Believing every you-tube video you watch and every word a total stranger tells you, and relying solely on blind faith and ignorance, must surely be a drain on you... I know it is me.  :(

   
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Farrah
Quote:
all these fancy ideas and absurd theories, yet none of you are even considering simple resistive heating. Why?
------------------------------------------------------------
Well for one reason a man that has worked most of his life with exactly that type of water heater,
Has said this is not what he has happening at all?

I suppose when you work every day in a trade and something unusual comes along ...well
   "it takes good instincts coupled with lots of bench experience. A solid understanding of the  fundamentals won't hurt, but will help with the "separation" process".

He's on that page ...he has my ear ...and Its time to stop regurgitating the same old same old....

Chet
   

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tExB=qr
Peter Davey also has a sonic water heater.

http://www.rexresearch.com/davey/davey.htm

In regards to sonic water heaters, does anything get colder as the water gets hotter?
   

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tExB=qr
A commercial version:

http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=12840

Rheem makes one.

Maybe these sonic water heaters are just micro-heat-pumps.   Now all the BS, and pseudo-mumbo-jumbo can be cast aside.
   
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Funny you should mention that Grumpy
One fellah that is working feverishly on this designs/installs those systems for a living.....
He Knows what efficient heat pump numbers look like ..........
This makes them look Silly!!

gotta go back to work...........

Chet
   
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G, good post.  There are acoustic standing wave "compressors" for heat transfer, I read about one years ago in an mechanical engineering journal.  I don't recall how efficient it was, but it worked.  This brings me to this question:  do these guys totally immerse the "resonators" in the water? Or just partially?

If partially, it might be possible to speculate that efficient heat transfer is taking place.

If totally, and it works as claimed, I believe a more sensible explanation can be found in the realm of chemistry, and there has to be a exothermic reaction that takes place.
   

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tExB=qr
A disruptive discharge coil can melt tungsten electrodes - that's pretty hot!

I'm open to a reinterpretation of "heat", if and when anyone comes up with something new.  Laws can always be amended!
   
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EM
Quote
do these guys totally immerse the "resonators" in the water? Or just partially?
----------
Totally ,
However it has been noted that the COP rises if the Temp at the Drive ring/ Cylinder interface is kept close to boiling [gaseous]? 90C

Chet
   
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thanks Chet,  that's very interesting and kind of hints at phase change and latent heat.


Imagine with me that we could change the pressure of the liquid at will.    We know from thermodynamics that the boiling point of a liquid is dependent on the external pressure, so we could resonably expect different tempertures or heat quantities, if we vary the pressure.

By using AC electricity and currents,  I suspect that dissosiation of water molecules is taking place (or break up of molecules into H2  and O2 diatomic gas molecules)   and on the reverse cycle of the AC current the recombination of these products back into a water molecule is taking place, and of course boiling of the water should be expected also.   Now, if there is some sort of pressure difference between the two processes, then it is resonable to suspect that an imbalance of heat is involved.   Setting up sonic resonance in water, at the same frequency as the AC waveform will create such imbalance, but higher frequencies will not help, and don't help this theory.

Anyway,  very interesting to imagine what other processes could be taking place, if this is real.    by the way, if there are consumables involved, like aluminum that corodes in the water, then all bets are off.  this would then imply a very simple chemical reaction that releases heat as a by product, and the electricity facilitates the reaction.

EM

PS.  Do you all remember the Mr Thrapp video when he heats up that sphere full of water with a 9 V battery?   That was amazing!   The probe looked like an acoustic generator, so this process could be very much all about sonic energy, and not so much about electricity flowing in water, which creates bubles, which are very sudden volume expansions, which can be used to stimulate an acoustic cavity as the final desired phenomena,   so there could be short cuts.     Lot's of experimentation required!

Here's a simple experiment to conduct:

Use a pressure cooker and presurize the cooker to a set pressure by using a regulator to maintain that pressure.  Now try and vaporize the water inside with electricity and electrodes, and measure how much water has vaporized per Joule of energy injection.  (subtracting the initial and final mass of the setup to find the difference and compare to the energy used.)   This experiment must be done at the boiling temperature, so the cooker needs to be brought up to this temperature before the electricity experiment can begin.    Now, I wonder if these numbers change based on the pressure?   I hope they do.  
« Last Edit: 2012-01-03, 21:25:35 by EMdevices »
   

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EM,

When you increase the water pressure you raise the boiling point and increase the ability of the liquid to store energy (Q). This still doesn't mean more out than in  :(

As far as sudden compression goes and sonoluminescence (shades of that damned sea-food again?) Wikipedia is validated by this recent find on thermoluminescence:


---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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WW
AS Johny Carson used to say....
I DID NOT KNOW THAT ??

WW
Quote:
 This still doesn't mean more out than in  
-------------------------------------------------
Perhaps it is Naive of me ...[MH slaps his Knee and says NOOO!!}.... To assume the little bug ...twitching his tiny little Muscle ...attached to his Sweet tasting Claw
Causing  a Sono  event that Rivals the temperature of the sun [9900C] would be more out than In??
''

I know.. I Know... he didn't run the Claw long enough for the Data to be Viable??

Junk      Junk Data  He's a PutZ!! [No He's the Bug]

We run the Hammer for a bit more... and we get More out than in [at least in heat]
A lot More!!



Chet
« Last Edit: 2012-01-03, 23:12:57 by ramset »
   

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ramset,

I doubt that little crustacean ever claimed OU. It is the same old problem.

Just because the color of the light (measured in Kelvin) is the same or higher than the Sun means little. The fantastic thing about the lil' buggers is they can concentrate all of the energy from that claw into such a short period of time. There is no more energy out than they apply with the claw.

It is just compressed into a very short time period so the amplitude is much higher.

When we say we get 1 megawatt out of a coil is doesn't mean any more. The question is - how much do you get over what time period?

The same goes for water hammer and cavitation. All can be devastating but there is no more out than in, in all these cases.


---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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WW,   this is what I'm thinking.

1)   A low pressure wave is present at the electrodes, so water vaporizes and create many small bubles around the electrodes, WITH MINIMUM ENERGY INPUT, because of the low pressure.

2)   A high pressure wave returns, and now the tiny bubles are compressed and forced to condense, so higher energy is realized upon condensation.   



It may sounds crazy, but according to phase change data,  there are different heat contents  required depending on the external pressure.


There you have it folks,  EM strikes again!     LOL    :D     

EM

PS.  Actually,  energy would be accounted for by the pressure wave and what it does at the other end.
   
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Farrah
Quote:
all these fancy ideas and absurd theories, yet none of you are even considering simple resistive heating. Why?
------------------------------------------------------------
Well for one reason a man that has worked most of his life with exactly that type of water heater,
Has said this is not what he has happening at all?

I suppose when you work every day in a trade and something unusual comes along ...well
   "it takes good instincts coupled with lots of bench experience. A solid understanding of the  fundamentals won't hurt, but will help with the "separation" process".

He's on that page ...he has my ear ...and Its time to stop regurgitating the same old same old....

Chet


There you go again, Chet. The guy is a total stranger to you - he could be absolutely anyone... any old nut-job - but you are again believing every word this strangers says? In reality you know absolutely nothing about him. Is he really a Professor...? I very much doubt it after the gibberish he has been spouting about neutrinos! A Professor in what exactly? Have you seen his qualifications? No, of course you haven't you are simply taking this stranger at his word as per usual.

Did I mention that my mom is actually the Queen of England... no kidding, really... I have photos of her on you-tube to prove it!

So Chet, are you dismissing the Profs, neutrino and MHz explanation in favour of cavitation... you didn't say? You also failed to shed any light on this new picture that shows these new frequencies... can you at least enlighten us about that?

One more thing Chet, you can't simply and continually provide a link to your friend the Pistol Shrimp, as if by way of explanation, every time you are backed into a corner.  
   
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Looks like NASA is involved with one of these cavitation heater companies, though they don't mention overunity, just "efficient heating",  but we know better !  LOL  ;D

http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff2000/ip3.htm
   
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WW,   this is what I'm thinking.

1)   A low pressure wave is present at the electrodes, so water vaporizes and create many small bubles around the electrodes, WITH MINIMUM ENERGY INPUT, because of the low pressure.

2)   A high pressure wave returns, and now the tiny bubles are compressed and forced to condense, so higher energy is realized upon condensation.  



It may sounds crazy, but according to phase change data,  there are different heat contents  required depending on the external pressure.


There you have it folks,  EM strikes again!     LOL    :D      

EM

PS.  Actually,  energy would be accounted for by the pressure wave and what it does at the other end.

I don’t think any of us will ever convince Chet and his flock to apply a little grey matter and commonsense to this, as they don’t seem interested in educating themselves, clearly preferring to reside in faery land.  

However, if we disregard the neutrino nonsense altogether, and likewise the beer can tuning bullshit, and all these random frequencies that are depicted, then the reality of the situation is that we are left with resistive heating and the possibility of cavitation.

Cavitation is something I’m currently working with regarding electrolysis, and it is not that hard to create between two or more current carrying electrodes that can freely vibrate.  But far from being super-complicated (multiple frequencies, etc) or mysterious (neutrinos), it comes down to the simple fact that the currents flowing in the device and through the water will set up magnetic fields, which will interact and cause the electrodes to oscillate, thereby creating areas of compression and rarefaction within the water.  

What occurs in cavitation is a low pressure area forms during rarefaction whereby the liquid water forms into a gas bubble, but then collapses in on itself at a phenomenal rate as the pressure increases and it reverts to liquid state. The implosion creates incredible localized pressures and temperatures, but all this happens on a microscopic level and so overall heating effects are minimal.  Dissolved atmospheric gases such as O2 and N2 within the water will also play a part. Now, there is some evidence that suggests that cavitation is more efficient in dissociating water than Faraday electrolysis, so the possibility exists that cavitation surely will enhance resistive heating in some manner, but to say that resistive heating does not occur would be – is, Chet – sheer madness.

It’s time to throw away the magic beans and faery dust, get an education, learn a little real science and stop talking utter bollocks!

One thing to note is that if cavitation is taking place and enhancing the resistive heating process in some way, then a percentage of gases, other than water vapour, should be evident. Not least hydrogen and oxygen. But unlike electrolysis, the pressures and temperatures seen in cavitation will also give rise to more exotic gas species, such as hydrogen peroxide and others.
   
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that's very interesting Farrah Day,  so even the electrodes can vibrate due to electromagnetic forces ...  more to ponder I guess.    by the way,  is Chet and the others on the other forum saying that resistive heating does NOT take place?     That should be obvious to anyone I would think.

I had another thought.

If there is truly extra energy created in a cavitation/sonic boiler/whatever,   and the metal surfaces are pited due to cavitation,  that also represents an exothermic reaction.  Just because the metal does not react chemicaly, but instead breaks up into tiny pieces, bonds are still breaking and they release energy into the water.    

So there we have it,   yet another mechanism to consider before  screaming to the world that we have achived OVERUNITY!     :D      (I hope I'm not accusing anybody,  lol)

EM  

PS,   If we could break every metalic bond between the atoms of a 1 cm^3  cube of metal,  say Iron,  I bet you that the energy that would be released would be HUGE! maybe on the order of one ton of gasoline?  maybe more?   I hope somebody does a calculation ...

Now there is a theory I can sink my teeth into.     ;D 
   
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