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Author Topic: Serbian Professor Savic Sonic water heater replication COP 12  (Read 294041 times)
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MH
I know you have seen it all regarding "working devices" on this and other forums  !
Me Too,
I also know that in this community you are the staunchest opponent of OU with very good experience and credibility.That is why I come here!  Its sort of my lifes business model ,how I always did and continue to do things!

   I have spoken with many men over the years By phone and in person claiming to have OU!
Since I don't ever hide my real Name to them [as apposed to some internet handle} I have never had a bad experience even with some of the more noteworthy Men sharing their ideas and
expectations.

Everyone of them to a T was going for a patent
Every single one!!

I have never seen one of their devices come to market and to be perfectly honest, I had very little understanding of how any of them could possibly have worked?
I signed NDA's verbal agreements ETC ETC  .

This one is different ....there is something going on beyond the building of this device .... a chain of events as well as some pretty amazing circumstance has led to this being "Understood"!
I can not tell you how much this one person has impressed me with his Humility ,Honesty. and integrity...
A man apart....
It has been my lifes experience to deal with all manner of men ,in all walks of life.... for over 40yrs

Never met a man like this....
He knows "the right thing to do" Open source ! He just wants to make sure History doesn't repeat itself making the device a "No show" in the world.
Me Too!!

That being said .... there is most definitely something special going on!

There is a behind the scenes arrangement in the works to Vet this device !
It seems to be taking some time to happen ... Perhaps this small evaluation will help to expedite that arrangement ,,The end goal of which is Open source !

I hope this can be a good experience for this community and the world .
A black box test
some numbers ...techniques ... discussed !
A work in progress!

We shall see??


Chet
PS
I must add the members here have more experience than most in the field of OU research ,the skill levels professionalism and education of you folks makes this a no brainer for me!!

PPS
To ANY ONE that reads this and wants to contribute and join this Forum ....It has become invitation only do to attacks from Bots and such.
PM me at energetic or overunity and the administration here will set you up!





   
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Chet:

I definitely sense your sincerity and I think it is highly commendable.  I have backed off from the forums in general and really don't follow much so it means I have more bandwidth to follow one thing.

Believe it or not, I am serious when I say my intention is to help you and others in the thread to make a decision on this proposition so that you can move on to other things if that's how it turns out.  I don't know if you can understand the sinking feeling that myself and others may feel when I read some of the stuff put forward by some people pitching their free energy propositions.  You feel sometimes like you are in a place where nothing is making any sense but nobody seems to notice.  Imagine taking your car in for a tune up and you chat with the mechanic and you realize that he doesn't know the difference between metric and English sockets.  He doesn't know that your gar runs on gasoline and he doesn't understand that there is a difference between gasoline and diesel fuel.  He opens your oil cap and starts to put antifreeze in the engine.  He doesn't care or even understand what your tire pressure is.  Then you look around and all the other mechanics continue working as if nothing special is going on.  Other customers are around you and they don't seem to care or comment about what's going on.

That's the analogy for what happens many times in the free energy forums.  The Serbian "professor" is advancing his proposition in the same way as the crazy mechanic.  He submits a "temperature vs. current" graph which makes no sense at all and nobody says anything, they just carry on with what they are doing.  I am not "overly emotionally involved" but I can tell you even with being only partially emotionally involved sometimes it's emotionally draining.

Another analogy just occurred to me, perhaps it's a bit of a stretch.  Look at YouTube clips of the Vancouver riot.  What's abnormal becomes normal.  People are trying to torch $50,000 police cars and others just walk by and don't care or they even cheer them on.  That was a mind-bender, a real mess.  It's a mind-bender to see ridiculous nonsensical techno-junk presented as a serious free energy proposition sometimes.  How come Aaron can't understand the energy dynamics of a bouncing ball?  How come Bedini talks about a Bloch wall in a standard bar magnet when there isn't one and nobody says anything?

Anyway, you seem to be saying that we will not have the opportunity to vet your friend's COP 7 proposition because he is supposedly taking care of it himself.  That's unfortunate because sometimes you can tell in as little as 10 sentences that someone really doesn't know what they are doing and they are full of crap.  It sounds to me like you are being played.  This person probably fears that he will be "outed" quite quickly and his "deal" will fall apart.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.

MileHigh
   
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http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_highest_COP_available_on_a_heat_pump
...

Another interesting question would be: what COP is needed for a heat pump to self-run?

   
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...
You feel sometimes like you are in a place where nothing is making any sense but nobody seems to notice.  Imagine taking your car in for a tune up and you chat with the mechanic and you realize that he doesn't know the difference between metric and English sockets.  He doesn't know that your gar runs on gasoline and he doesn't understand that there is a difference between gasoline and diesel fuel.  He opens your oil cap and starts to put antifreeze in the engine.  He doesn't care or even understand what your tire pressure is.  Then you look around and all the other mechanics continue working as if nothing special is going on.  Other customers are around you and they don't seem to care or comment about what's going on.

Great lived experience  ;). I experienced the same almost every day on some other forums. And the worst comes when these ignorants explain their infused knowledge with a lot of nonsenses devoid of facts, measurements and math, and pretend that you are wrong and you don't understand because of your allegiance to the Academy and of your inability to think outside the box.
Since year 2000 and the discovery of the Dunning-Kruger effect, awarded by a Nobel price, we can be much less emotionally concerned: even though what these people assert are insults to intelligence, we have now the rational reason of their behavior.
We must just rapidly reject their claims by lack of evidence and certainly not enter in the details of explanations because their psychological sickness prevent them from comprehending logical and rational dialogs on Internet.


   

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exnihiloest,

While I agree the D/K effect is in evidence on these forums I must disagree that it is a psychological sickness. If it is then we are all mentally ill.

Clearly, you place yourself on the higher end of that scale and repeatedly pronounce the ignorance of others. I do the same. Where does that actually place us on the D/K effect scale?

We don't need to declare the stupidity or ignorance of others. That brings our own into question. Just disregarding claims without proof is enough.

I think Chet would score very well using the Dunning-Kruger effect as a standard.  ;)

Is that your secret, Chet? Are you playing us all like a deck of cards?  ???


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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Chet, I don't know if you can understand the sinking feeling that myself and others may feel when I read some of the stuff put forward by some people pitching their free energy propositions.  You feel sometimes like you are in a place where nothing is making any sense but nobody seems to notice.  Imagine taking your car in for a tune up and you chat with the mechanic and you realize that he doesn't know the difference between metric and English sockets.  He doesn't know that your gar runs on gasoline and he doesn't understand that there is a difference between gasoline and diesel fuel.  He opens your oil cap and starts to put antifreeze in the engine.  He doesn't care or even understand what your tire pressure is.  Then you look around and all the other mechanics continue working as if nothing special is going on.  Other customers are around you and they don't seem to care or comment about what's going on.


Great lived experience  ;). I experienced the same almost every day on some other forums. And the worst comes when these ignorants explain their infused knowledge with a lot of nonsenses devoid of facts, measurements and math, and pretend that you are wrong and you don't understand because of your allegiance to the Academy and of your inability to think outside the box.
Since year 2000 and the discovery of the Dunning-Kruger effect, awarded by a Nobel price, we can be much less emotionally concerned: even though what these people assert are insults to intelligence, we have now the rational reason of their behavior.
We must just rapidly reject their claims by lack of evidence and certainly not enter in the details of explanations because their psychological sickness prevent them from comprehending logical and rational dialogs on Internet.


Brilliant - well put guys.  O0
   
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MH
The intent would be as you outlined in your post! I have not been able to speak with him yet [working away from home this week].
Please don't assume anything has Changed regarding power in and out .
The ongoing behind the scenes effort is all about vetting the device !
And making this available to the world as well as rewarding the inventors !

This would help bring more support for that effort!

I am super busy today with limited access to the phone and internet!

THX
Chet
   
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OK
Its a go ,I just hung up ....He's more excited than me!! He found out in addition to all this heat he's getting peroxide ?
He has a good Camera [gonna be a Movie}

Any Hoo I asked him to out line the test procedure first ,so we can be sure its acceptable!

Sweet!!

THX
Chet!
   
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Some thoughts

Perhaps we should have  a collective bench mark !

As MH Put it .....A clean slate!
Leave personal  history on the other side of the mark .for the time being you can keep sharpening your axes.... ,just don't bring them here!

Any one having a problem with this please see a doctor!

I have asked Steve to have input here as well as any others with testing experience, My role is for the most part Done!

THX
Chet

   
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@Milehigh
Quote
Another analogy just occurred to me, perhaps it's a bit of a stretch.  Look at YouTube clips of the Vancouver riot.  What's abnormal becomes normal.  People are trying to torch $50,000 police cars and others just walk by and don't care or they even cheer them on.  That was a mind-bender, a real mess.  It's a mind-bender to see ridiculous nonsensical techno-junk presented as a serious free energy proposition sometimes.  How come Aaron can't understand the energy dynamics of a bouncing ball?  How come Bedini talks about a Bloch wall in a standard bar magnet when there isn't one and nobody says anything?

I know how you feel, however this is not to say I agree with what you have said because I see this lack of understanding on both sides of the fence. For instance, if there is no Bloch wall then can you explain these links specifically referring to the bloch wall?.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloch_wall
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pssb.2220570121/abstract
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1952PhRv...85.1003H
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960077996000872
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12689137
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0375960182902316

Now the question remains, how is it every branch of science having impecible credentials recognizes the Bloch wall as real if not obvious yet you seem to be telling us it does not exist or is somehow imaginary?. As well a quick google on the Bloch wall led me to this post that you made in this forum.

Quote
Bedini discusses inductors as electromagnets, and bar magnets, in the EFTV series as two examples of devices that exhibit Bloch walls, where the Bloch wall cuts the electromagnet or magnet in two lengthwise pieces at the center of the device.  For starters, by definition there are no Bloch walls associated with a coil (a.k.a.; an electromagnet).  That doesn't even make any sense.  A regular bar magnet does not possess a Bloch wall either.
There are not two "poles that come together in the center of the magnet (or an electromagnet)."  It's almost unbelievable that he would say that.  It's approaching "litmus test" territory.
More importantly, for emphasis, there is no Bloch wall in a standard bar magnet at all.

The fact of the matter is that I could post literally hundreds upon hundreds of credible papers from respected science journals that refer specifically to the "Bloch Wall" which is in fact a very hot area of research for obvious reasons. As well we could ask why there is such interest in something which you seem to believe does not exist for reasons I find hard to fathom. The reason is obvious, if one end of a magnet is considered a magnetic pole and the opposite end is considered an opposite magnetic pole then between them there must be a region which does not have the properties of either pole. Just as a water pump which has pressure on one side and a suction on the other must have a region between the pressure and suction sides which has neither pressure nor suction, it is at ambient conditions. Let's make this easy ---

Newton's laws of motion:
Third law: The mutual forces of action and reaction between two bodies are equal, opposite and collinear.

If action and reaction are equal and opposite as dictated by the conservation of energy then there must be a point dividing the action from the reaction which is neither an action nor a reaction, it is neither. The Bloch wall exists because if it did not this would be a violation of damn near every fundamental law of science. There is always a region which divides equal and opposite conditions --- ALWAYS---, a region divides up from down, left from right, in from out, sky from ground, push from pull, black from white, pressure from suction etc... and it is apparent and obvious this is the case including the Bloch wall found in every magnet field without exception. This is a fundamental premise to all natural and scientific laws that we know of and is obvious to everyone who understands these laws.

You have failed the litmus test.


Regards
AC
« Last Edit: 2012-01-05, 18:16:28 by allcanadian »


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Chet:

How about this for a clean slate:

So you have a friend that claims he or she is showing COP = 7.  I am assuming that this friend is not on the EF thread and you are convinced that he/she is on to something.  I will also assume that this might be the person that you are agonizing about the patent issue with.

Unfortunately, based on the track record, I am going to also assume that you only have anecdotal evidence about this person's claims.

So how about we vet this person's claim right here? We don't have to see the device, he or she can submit a picture of the setup and simply put a piece of cardboard in front of the device itself.  What we want to see is the setup and the input and output power (or more likely energy) measurements and how they are measured and calculated.  The actual device can be a black box as far as everyone is concerned.

I will repeat, we do not have to see the device at all.  Assuming that they are willing to have their claim vetted, then there is no reason for this person to balk.  No one will see the device itself and the patent information will remain privy to this person.

Does that sound fair enough?  Let's see if there is any substance behind the COP 7 claim.  This is the real thing Chet, we are looking for real, credible measurements and you can expect real feedback from the people in this forum.

If a miracle happens and you are told it all seems to look good, so much the better for you.  If it looks like junk, then you will be told it is junk.  You can decide if you want to move on and look at the next prospect that comes along.

MileHigh

I concur with this testing procedure and thank Chet for working to get this accomplished:
Quote
We don't have to see the device, he or she can submit a picture of the setup and simply put a piece of cardboard in front of the device itself.  What we want to see is the setup and the input and output power (or more likely energy) measurements and how they are measured and calculated.  The actual device can be a black box as far as everyone is concerned.

In particular, I expect and hope that the inventor (called "D" IIRC) will use simple calorimetry as I have also discussed above for measuring the output heat-energy Q:

Q = m x Cg x (Tf - Ti)

The measurement is straightforward when the COP is high as claimed; remember to stir the water before measuring Tf and Ti and to insulate the containment vessel!  At high COP, a styrofoam cooler should work fine.

Measuring input energy can be done with a kill-o-watt type meter, measuring KW-hrs -- as long as the "error-bar" (or sampling error) is small...  Agreed?  There are other ways to measure Einput.

Can we agree in advance on acceptable methods for measuring input energy and output energy?  I think this is important to avoid difficulties later.

   
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Also -- .99, haven't heard from you lately and hope you are doing well. 

Regarding the OUR prize -- can you extend the requirement so that a heat-producing device such as the sonic boiler could be ALLOWED in the criteria for OU success?   

   

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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
Quote
No Bloch wall

Obviously there is an alternate universe the we mere mortals don't know about.

There was also a previous quote how
Quote
The ignorant believe their own half truths
And
Quote
There can be no claim as to the validty of something unless there are exact measurements and peer review of stated claims and test results.

Every so often pridefull people step into their own stuff. This always involves the audience watching.

Old chinese proverb: Man who live in glass house should not throw stones. Damn! I just broke a wall...


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@ ALL
I am not sure if I have his E M  ,But if anyone could contact Tinsel Koala ?
This is right up his alley !
I will put out some feelers also
THX
Chet
   

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This quote from MH...

"Bedini discusses inductors as electromagnets, and bar magnets, in the EFTV series as two examples of devices that exhibit Bloch walls, where the Bloch wall cuts the electromagnet or magnet in two lengthwise pieces at the center of the device.  For starters, by definition there are no Bloch walls associated with a coil (a.k.a.; an electromagnet).  That doesn't even make any sense.  A regular bar magnet does not possess a Bloch wall either.
There are not two "poles that come together in the center of the magnet (or an electromagnet)."  It's almost unbelievable that he would say that.  It's approaching "litmus test" territory.
More importantly, for emphasis, there is no Bloch wall in a standard bar magnet at all."

... IS completely correct.

The only part of the Wiki article that is correct is where they mention that the correct name is Ne'el Wall(or has it been edited again?). There is no macroscopic division line between North and South poles. Virtually ALL free energy researcher use of the term 'Bloch Wall' is a gross misinterpretation. Magnets and coils only have Ne'el walls, i.e. a gradient or connection between N/S.

Heaven help the ones calling it a 'Blotch Wall'  ;D

The other links posted by AC appear to be realistic uses of the terminology and refer to the boundary between up/down spin domains of adjacent moving charged particles.

The closest you can get to a Bloch Wall, in the macroscopic world, is the null point between two opposing magnets.



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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
So in a bar magnet the north and south poles are simply a distribution that lie between the magnet and the outside world?


---------------------------
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
AC,

I understood them, but I believe you have misconstrued what MH said and meant by his postings on the Bloch Wall.

He did not say that a Bloch Wall does not exist, but said it is not what most erroneously refer to as the centre of a magnet along its axis.

A Bloch Wall exists any time there is a transition between the polarity of one magnetic domain to another.

You researched and typed a lot of stuff for nothing, unless of course you learned something in the process.

.99
   
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Chet:

I don't think that you or anyone on the forum should get into any discussions at all with your friend that is claiming COP 7.  You are just opening the door for fudging and back-tracking and endless debates back and forth for nothing.  It's a recipe for failure one more time.

You said that he has COP 7 presumably because that's exactly what he told you.  He has made the statement.  So the onus is on this person to tell us how he arrived at this conclusion.  We are making the fair and reasonable assumption that this person did his tests and made his measurements to arrive at COP 7 and that he knows what he is doing.

We don't need any kind of internal debate on the forum to make up a list or establish a procedure or anything.  Let this person present his COP 7 proposition and make his case no questions asked.

AC and Giantkiller:

You guys are demonstrating the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I never said that Bloch walls don't exist, I simply said that they don't exist in a standard bar magnet.  It's impossible for them to exist in an air coil.

Quote
The reason is obvious, if one end of a magnet is considered a magnetic pole and the opposite end is considered an opposite magnetic pole then between them there must be a region which does not have the properties of either pole.

There are not really "two pole regions" with some sort of a "neutral zone" in between them.  In real life there is no such thing a a "magnetic pole" in the truest sense. That is simply a naming convention to facilitate talking about magnets and magnetic fields.  Magnetic field lines travel in closed loops.  So just like a circle has no start or end, magnetic fields don't have poles.

Quote
So in a bar magnet the north and south poles are simply a distribution that lie between the magnet and the outside world?

Pie-in-the-sky talk Giantkiller.  You and many others often use terms that are meaningless without a qualifier.  A "distribution?"  A distribution of what?

A bar magnet is simply a piece of ferrous metal with a homogenous arrangement of magnetic moments for the majority of the ferrous molecules so it looks like a single giant integral magnetic domain.  There are no Bloch walls.

So it appears that both of you may have been playing around with magnets on your benches for years without the most basic understanding of how they work.  I suppose that we could make a reasonable extrapolation and assume that the majority of free energy experimenters don't understand how they work.  That's why Bedini can spout his nonsense and get away with it.

I recommend that both of you go to the Hyperphysics web site and do some other searches and reading in order to master "Magnetism 101."

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2012-01-06, 02:05:33 by MileHigh »
   
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MH
How true!!
I was just adding  a little courtesy to the equation !

A procedure was never in question ,I just wanted him to give me some rough idea of how he does it[that was my fault I asked him]?

You are correct  ...No need to get any one who has never done this involved ,We can all Google!

Tinsel Koala And I believe Steve has someone With vast experience in this ??

Good idea !!
Thanks for your input!

Chet
   
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So, if we have 2 magnets, both north or south facing each other, with say a distance between them, then we would have a bloch wall?

Or the magnets could be replaced by coils to get the same result.

Or 1 magnet and 1 coil both north or south facing each other. Bedini?

Mags
   
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Quote
So, if we have 2 magnets, both north or south facing each other, with say a distance between them, then we would have a bloch wall?

If you put a neutral ferrous bar between the two opposing magnets and line everything up, and assuming the magnets are the same strength, then somewhere in the middle of the neutral ferrous bar you will have a Bloch wall.  You have to have ferrous material to have a Bloch wall.

i.e.; something like this:

|N===S|XXXXXXX|S===N|

If you remove either magnet, then the Bloch wall will disappear in the remaining two components.

You could do the same thing with two coils or a magnet and a coil.

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@Poynt99
Quote
He did not say that a Bloch Wall does not exist, but said it is not what most erroneously refer to as the centre of a magnet along its axis.
I would agree, it was not so much what he said but what was implied, for instance Milehigh said----

Quote
Bedini discusses inductors as electromagnets, and bar magnets, in the EFTV series as two examples of devices that exhibit Bloch walls, where the Bloch wall cuts the electromagnet or magnet in two lengthwise pieces at the center of the device.  For starters, by definition there are no Bloch walls associated with a coil (a.k.a.; an electromagnet).  That doesn't even make any sense.  A regular bar magnet does not possess a Bloch wall either.
There are not two "poles that come together in the center of the magnet (or an electromagnet)."  It's almost unbelievable that he would say that.  It's approaching "litmus test" territory.
More importantly, for emphasis, there is no Bloch wall in a standard bar magnet at all.

Or maybe a person could have just said "Bedini misused the term "Bloch wall" as most people often do", I don't think we have to imply someone is unbelievable, incompetent or has no credibility simply because they used a term out of context. I wonder how many actually knew the exact meaning of the term before they googled it?.


@Wavewatcher
Quote
The only part of the Wiki article that is correct is where they mention that the correct name is Ne'el Wall(or has it been edited again?). There is no macroscopic division line between North and South poles. Virtually ALL free energy researcher use of the term 'Bloch Wall' is a gross misinterpretation. Magnets and coils only have Ne'el walls, i.e. a gradient or connection between N/S.

Gross misinterpretation?, wow that sounds serious --- or is it simply referred to as slang where large groups of people use a term which may not have the same definition as that found in the dictionary. Do you think I should believe you are stupid and peg you as a free energy nut if you ever use a term out of context? , I thought so.

@Milehigh
Quote
I recommend that both of you go to the Hyperphysics web site and do some other searches and reading in order to master "Magnetism 101."
Do you think Hyperphysics can tell me what a magnetic field is fundamentally-- not what it does what it is?, Maybe you could help you see I can't seem to find a credible answer to this apparently simple question anywhere?.
On another topic, I think the forums are going downhill in a big way, you know the highlight of last year was not anything of substance it was when I got you to snap and tell me what you really thought including a few words I won't mention, lol. The forums are not unlike your magnetic field going round and round like a cat chasing it's tail which never actually goes anywhere. That's too bad, it used to be so much more fun when everyone was passionate about their views right or wrong. In any case I wish all of you a happy new year, really, and hopefully we may actually get to debate something of actual substance.

Regards
AC



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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Also -- .99, haven't heard from you lately and hope you are doing well. 

Regarding the OUR prize -- can you extend the requirement so that a heat-producing device such as the sonic boiler could be ALLOWED in the criteria for OU success?   



I am well Professor, thanks. :)

If you wish, you may write something up or edit the existing terms and conditions to suit your request. Send it to me via PM, and we'll go from there. Thanks for helping out.

.99
   
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AC:

Quote
Or maybe a person could have just said "Bedini misused the term "Bloch wall" as most people often do", I don't think we have to imply someone is unbelievable, incompetent or has no credibility simply because they used a term out of context. I wonder how many actually knew the exact meaning of the term before they googled it?.

He did not use that term out of context.  It was part of Bedini "teaching" his viewers about "vacuum energy."  First he locates his non-existent Bloch walls on his blackboard drawing of a regular bar magnet, and then draws spirals on each side of the Bloch walls that are supposed to represent "vacuum energy" spiraling into the Bloch wall.  So the non-existent Bloch walls are supposed to be the entry point for the non-existent vacuum energy.  He then shows how exactly the same process applies to coils.

So here Bedini is preaching free energy coming from magnets and coils in a teaching context.  And of course we all know that Bedini will also categorically state that he does not make any free energy claims.

Quote
Do you think Hyperphysics can tell me what a magnetic field is fundamentally-- not what it does what it is?, Maybe you could help you see I can't seem to find a credible answer to this apparently simple question anywhere?.

Good God, AC, you can always play that card.

Quote
I think the forums are going downhill in a big way, you know the highlight of last year was not anything of substance it was when I got you to snap and tell me what you really thought including a few words I won't mention, lol.

Yes, you got pwned, you initiated it, so you get to shoot your load.

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Quote
Good God, AC, you can always play that card
In my favorite card game, smear, we call it a boss card(s) because you can always lay down your hand and walk away a winner. I usually play the "magnetic" card when I have run out of smart ass remarks or have no credible answers to the questions at hand. It's also fun at parties when some know it all tries to challenge my know it all-ness.

Regards
AC


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.” George Bernard Shaw
   
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