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Author Topic: Serbian Professor Savic Sonic water heater replication COP 12  (Read 294179 times)
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A quarter standing wave of 50 or 60Hz is over a million, yes, ONE MILLION, metres in length...
The wavelenth of a 50hz signal is about 23 feet, 700 cm.
Will not half a wavelength get a standing wave going?

See this handy table here:
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html
   
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The wavelenth of a 50hz signal is about 23 feet, 700 cm.
Will not half a wavelength get a standing wave going?

See this handy table here:
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html

You must be thinking 50 Megahertz.  A 50 Hertz wavelength is 600000 meters or 3728.227152 miles.   I don't know what they are talking about at your link above but it's music related.  A full wavelength of 50 Hz is no where near what they list and is what I posted here. 
   
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You must be thinking 50 Megahertz.  A 50 Hertz wavelength is 600000 meters or 3728.227152 miles.   I don't know what they are talking about at your link above but it's music related.  A full wavelength of 50 Hz is no where near what they list and is what I posted here. 
I think we have our wires crossed here.

I am talking about acoustic waves in air, not electromagnetic waves.
   
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Sorry,  That's what I get for jumping in on the end of a thread without reading the whole thing.  Guess I didn't even read the thread title  ???   
   
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Ematrix
Perhaps a HUGE observation on your part?
Thank you
Chet
   
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I'm sorry,
but I hold my ground on the fact that even though your contact says
to sand the thickness of the can, he/she is blatently wrong on that.

Trimming by length on an ubber-thin vessal like a "Tin" can
meets ALL of the tuning criteria for a cylindrical item like this can.

In fact it is preferential to modifying thickness
(as opposed to the sanding of a thick solid body "bell", AKA Davey Heater).

But if I am right,
I'm pointing out a flaw overseen.

When you sand a painted can you expose the outer surface,
and as such expose it to the electrolytic enviroment too.

Just think of sanding exposed surfaces for an HHO implementation.

Can it be that when your contact "Sanded" it to "tune" it,
what actually happened is he/she exposed it elecrically instead ?

And the sudeen rise in performance of his "Method" is due to this ?

All positive intentions meant !

« Last Edit: 2011-09-29, 00:59:06 by CompuTutor »
   
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Look, what have you gleened from your tactfully cautious questions to him/her about the source of the "8X" ring's input/source ?

What is being used to produce this, and at hat levels ?

Even if you get the can "Tuned" to a harmonic of the mains,
surely this cannot work without this (additional) info, correct ?
   
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Trimming by length on an ubber-thin vessal like a "Tin" can
meets ALL of the tuning criteria for a cylindrical item like this can.
The frequency of a tuning fork depends on the length, but ALSO on the
cross sectional area:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuning_fork

The thickness will have a bearing.

*** Also, we should be tuning to the mains frequency or an octave of it, and not
a harmonic of it. Important.
   
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Paul-R,
you have made a statement that would be true in the most literal of senses initially,
but you may have made a very good point for all of us in effect.

Harminics therof are used extensively in electronics,
what if you are correct for forcing the root multiple ?!

Thanks, that was hidden but yet obvious in this case.

Look,
there are knowledgeable errors in the PDF,
you admit it is a work in progress of course,
but it is a starting point and grouping of info matters.

Lets start with facts,
there are no anodes and cathodes in AC implementations,
unless there is a riding carrier on a DC bias acknowledged.

So please stop doing that first.

Next, there has been absolutely no information concerning two things:
1 - Where are the neutral mains and L1/L2 mains connected ?

2 - Where is this second upper frequency (8X) coming from ?


There are (at least) 16 other errors,
lets deal with these two first please...

No one can reproduce this with missing info.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-29, 00:52:41 by CompuTutor »
   
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Im writing a second reply to do my best to assure Slovenia
that my interests are in success of the initial concept.

What if the languge barrier is this simple,
what if the ring is a multiple of the mains,
and the can is a lower multiplicative of the mains ?

What if the thing he is telling us is that the physical "Ring"
is smaller and therefore vibrates at a higher multiplicative ?

This is assuming some major things though...

That the higher frequency of the ring is a resonance multiplicative.

?

However did simplicity prevail ?







« Last Edit: 2011-09-29, 00:54:02 by CompuTutor »
   
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The language barrier has been remedied
The project is getting to the "Run" stage,

Some inspiration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGT5PB733a0
If you have never seen this Vid Its a Must see.............


Chet
   
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Core has replicated the effect of Peter Davey!!
Here's your Bubbles MH................

HAH I Told you I'd Bring you Bubbles ! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Whats that ??
Data ?
Oh Thats coming..............
Vid to follow

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7096-peter-davey-heater-4.html#post161435

Chet
« Last Edit: 2011-10-09, 00:59:09 by ramset »
   
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Here it is MH

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7096-peter-davey-heater-4.html#post161435

The Movie
http://www.youtube.com/user/core315185#p/a/u/0/Z2bxYD5gRVY

Whats causing this water to get so hot so fast ??
Not even "Tuned yet"
We shall see

Chet

« Last Edit: 2011-10-09, 01:56:07 by ramset »
   
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This appears to be another dangerous and baffling experiment.  Connect AC mains power to two bell-shaped pieces of metal, one inserted inside the other, and watch what happens.  I'm assuming the water is being electrolyzed, those are not steam bubbles, they are a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen gas.  That's it???

There is no magic "resonance" frequency to look for, that's just the same tired old idea.  It's the hook to draw people in.  Crunching the thermal data is going to be next to impossible, and a certain proportion of the electrical energy supplied doesn't even become the heat that you are looking for, it's used to electrolyze the water instead.

Chet, tell me you have the common sense to also see this, please.

Switching from 50 Hz or 60 Hz mains power to something that runs at 480 Hz with comparable voltage levels and power levels will be interesting.  I wonder how he plans to do this, and if he will be using some kind of off-the-shelf controller.  Any amateur that attempts to do this with some kind of home-brew offering will be operating in some quite dangerous territory, especially since water is involved.  My advice would be to not do it because it would be a complete waste of time.  Just because somebody claims it will be more efficient at 480 Hz doesn't mean it's true.  In fact it's not true, it's just nonsensical junk information, and dangerous nonsensical junk information at that.

Put it this way:  Demonstrate that you can actually measure the efficiency of the pure mains-power-based system first, before you take the plunge and up the frequency to 480 Hz.  Like I said, just doing that is extremely difficult to do, even for a seasoned experimenter.
   
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@Milehigh
Quote
Switching from 50 Hz or 60 Hz mains power to something that runs at 480 Hz with comparable voltage levels and power levels will be interesting.  I wonder how he plans to do this, and if he will be using some kind of off-the-shelf controller.  Any amateur that attempts to do this with some kind of home-brew offering will be operating in some quite dangerous territory, especially since water is involved.  My advice would be to not do it because it would be a complete waste of time.  Just because somebody claims it will be more efficient at 480 Hz doesn't mean it's true.  In fact it's not true, it's just nonsensical junk information, and dangerous nonsensical junk information at that.
Not true you say, a waste of time? and how exactly would you know this?, you have done no experiments nor research on this technology so I have to wonder exactly how anybody with any credibility could make such claims. Let me put this in perspective, we have two bell shaped surfaces which represent conductors and a capacitor which are in motion, we have changing electric and magnetic fields which translate through non-linear surfaces, we have both high and low frequency fields acting on several different mediums all of which are motional, we have what could be considered a mobile electrolyte, we have ions in motion and we may have multiple gasses in suspension which are also mobile and subject to LF or HF fields. The facts, I mean the real facts, and not pointless speculation is that there is no supercomputer on this planet that I know of that could accurately model this system when considering all the dynamic variables involved.

Quote
This appears to be another dangerous and baffling experiment
Experiments and real science were never for the weak of heart and it is the persons of substance and determination who have always paid the price of the evolution of science which most take for granted. Science is not about sitting on a chair in front of a computer speculating about things we know nothing about, it is about reality, that is doing the actual experiments to determine the actual facts for ourselves.
On a side note, my children and I do two or three actual experiments per week together on any subject they choose. Can you imagine that? spending quality time with your children to teach them the real principals of science/experimentation and debating the physics of these experiments in depth with an eight and ten year old. Rest assured that like myself they are annoying little people and they do not except bullshit answers without a complete explanation which makes sense in reality, they are relentless,lol.

Regards
AC


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.” George Bernard Shaw
   
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It would be nice if somebody carries out an experiment and actually measures the gasses that form.   I think most of the bubbles are water vapor due to boiling, but maybe a small % of the gasses could be hydrogen and oxygen dissociated by the electricity flowing though water, but I'm not sure about this since AC is being used and the polarity changes very rapidly thus suppressing electrolysis significantly.   In fact I always wondered how frequency effects electrolysis.   All I know is that DC works great, and AC does not work very well.

Another test that could be useful, would be to measure the amount of heat generated directly vs indirectly by first heating up a wire which in turn heats up the water.  Will there be a difference?  Is one process more efficient?   Is passing electricity directly through water, and using it's resistance for the heating effect, any different than passing electricity through a wire and using it to heat up the water?  I wonder, but kind of doubt it.

EM
   
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AC:

I think it's great that you do experiments with your kids.  There are many other distractions in this day and age.

Your argument reminds me about when I said to someone that when they connected power up to their pulse motor that the battery was discharging.  They said, "How can you be sure?  You have to prove it."

So I guess that you have to draw a line somewhere, and my line is in a different position from yours.

In this case if you look at the micro scale changing the excitation frequency from 60 Hz to 480 Hz will look the same to the dancing and prancing water molecules.  Let`s assume pure sinusoidal excitation for the purpose of this discussion.  The electricity is either going to rip the molecules apart or flow through them.  If the electricity flows through them then the dancing and prancing gets more vigorous and the water heats up.  It's reasonable to assume that all of the different vibratory modes of the moving water molecules on the micro scale are so much higher than the 60 Hz or 480 Hz excitation frequency such that relative to the dancing water molecules it almost looks like pure DC.  60 Hz and 480 Hz "look the same" to the water molecules.

Often it's practical to look at relative frequencies on a logarithmic scale.  In that sense let's say that 60 Hz and 480 Hz are both around 10^2 Hz.  Let's suppose that for water molecules that micro effects start to take place around 10^6 Hz.   So 10^2 Hz looks like near-DC to 10^6 Hz.

On the macro scale you can visualize the AC current flowing through the entire volume of the water in the beaker.  That current flow pattern will be the same at 60 Hz or 480 Hz.  One more time relative to heating of the water or the way the current flows through the water, the two frequencies look the same.

People are welcome to experiment if they want to, but this experiment is an unwise one to perform.  There is nothing special with using mains power to heat and electrolyze water, and it's quite dangerous.

MileHigh
   
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I'm going to throw out a story which just came to mind concerning science, one day my 10 year old daughter comes home from school and she asks -- "What is gravity?". So I tell her it is a force, the force of gravity, which tends to pull objects together. At which point my daughter says-- "thats the same story my teacher told us and she doesn't know what shes talking about either", lol. After thinking on this a while I realized my daughter was right, it is a story and it is so generalized that it is completely pointless as it tells us nothing about what gravity is only what it does--- the question was never answered. Concerning what Gravitational, Magnetic and Electric fields are in reality there are no answers, all the answers tell us what the fields do but never what they are fundamentally.
As many famous scientist's have stated, sometimes we have to look at things through the eyes of a child to see the reality of something without all the baggage concerning what others have told us we should see. This left me with a problem, do I tell my daughter that this "force" of Gravity acting on objects is due to magical virtual photons which magically pop in and out of existence from some other magical universes? which is basically bullshit because it has never been proven and let's be honest even a ten year old is smart enough to know it sounds like BS. So I did some (many years) of research and there are literally hundreds of thousands of volumes on how gravity acts and what it does but not one single page which tells us what gravity is fundamentally, that is one page which does not rely on magical unproven BS. So I had to wonder, why has everyone assumed someone must have a logical  answer?, why is nobody asking this question?. It is as if most every adult is completely delusional/brain dead and lives in some kind of fanasy world where they believe everything is understood, not because it is however but only because they just do not care to really understand anything.
In any case I have found there are many benefits to clearing one's mind and taking a fresh unbiased perspective on things and in fact I have had great success using this technique. I imagine this may sound easy but I can assure you it is anything but easy because it relies solely on the fact that a person must first let go of everything they have learned in order to learn something new.
Regards
AC


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.” George Bernard Shaw
   
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@milehigh
Quote
People are welcome to experiment if they want to, but this experiment is an unwise one to perform.  There is nothing special with using mains power to heat and electrolyze water, and it's quite dangerous.
I would agree there are many dangers involved and water and any electric current over the mA range can spell disaster with a capital D. I apologize if I got a little cranky or implied something unpolite with my last post, sometimes I take it for granted that people understand the consequences of their actions and take precautions when doing experiments.
On the issue of this device, I have been doing experiments and research on phenomena which I believe relate directly to this device. For instance does a direct current flow through a bubble in water?, no it is a distinct boundary condition however an AC current can produce a potential across it. A bubble can act as a charge pump if a bubble is distorted, if the bubble moves, if the source of current moves the bubble can carry a temporary surface charge. A bubble which carries a surface charge on collapse or distortion acts as a charge source with a variable surface area thus a variable charge density on the surface. The point I would make is that many things can change drastically the moment we introduce new variables in which little or no actual research has been done. For instance let's say I have a bubble in a fluid in which the potential across it is changing, now we could say this should produce no effects we could call out of the ordinary however this is not always the case. If the rate of change of potential produces surface charges acting through the bubble which cause distortions, which cause oscillations independent of the source then the bubble is a source of changing potential in itself. As you can see the dynamics which could come into play are mind boggling, when a silly little bubble starts acting liike an RF transmitter then we have issues. In any case I have found the moment any singular part of a larger group of parts starts acting independently then all bets are off concerning what we think should happen.
Regards
AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.” George Bernard Shaw
   
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Switching from 50 Hz or 60 Hz mains power to something that runs at 480 Hz with comparable voltage levels
and power levels will be interesting.  I wonder how he plans to do this, and if he will be using some kind of
off-the-shelf controller.
You haven't a clue, Milehigh. Please read up on Davey first. It is laid out in Chapter 14 of Patrick's book.
   
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How about a link to the book?

I looked through this thread and the Energetic Forum thread and I think the 400 Hz or 480 Hz electrical excitation is to bring out some form of acoustic resonance in the system.

If this is what chapter 14 in the book is all about then you are back at square one with respect to resonance.  Let's assume that there is an acoustic resonant mode at 480 Hz or thereabouts in the bell-bell-water-beaker system.  So, will exciting the system with 120 VAC at the acoustic resonant frequency of 480 Hz do something special?

The answer is no, it won't do anything special.  It will not help along the heat generation to reach any of the fantastic over unity claims that Peter Davey makes.
   
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"Doc" from 2008:

Quote
ME feels this Myth is busted
After 4 months and $3000 I believe that I can conclude that the Davey heater myth is busted.
Will post for results and report for all to view and comment

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1414-daveys-water-heater-3.html#post29999

His report in pdf format (which I can't see):

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1414-daveys-water-heater-3.html#post30123

Three grand spent by Doc.  A conspiracy by the big-box hardware stores?  lol
   
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...
http://www.youtube.com/user/core315185#p/a/u/0/Z2bxYD5gRVY

Whats causing this water to get so hot so fast ??
Not even "Tuned yet"
...

Ordinary water is a conductor. With AC currents, there is almost no electrolysis, the water acts just like a resistance between the two electrodes. With a power more than one KW in such a small volume of water, the water resistance heats much and the water boils. The bubbles are water vapor, not hydrogen or oxygen.
Why should it be puzzling?


   
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... Let's assume that there is an acoustic resonant mode at 480 Hz or thereabouts in the bell-bell-water-beaker system.  So, will exciting the system with 120 VAC at the acoustic resonant frequency of 480 Hz do something special?
...

It could just evacuate the bubbles more quickly from the electrode surfaces, enhancing the electrical contact with the water.

   
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Thnks All
@Mh
I attached the PDF [DOCS][,just so it is here ,Thank you!

As you know We are replicating the Beer can Thingy which we are told is an older Tesla Device.
Well actually I'M still trying to source the exact Can ,Slovenia is going ahead inspite   just to keep his friend happy {the serbian Inventor who's Guiding this replication ,albeit cautiously   as he has a pending patent based loosely on the concept]

Thanks for your comments
Always appreciated!!

Chet
PS
Yes Exnihiloest Resistive heat is no surprize....
The time it takes Davey to heat {instantly apparently]
that seems interesting!!

Also this Tesla replication has a claimed OU from the serbian inventor !!





   
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