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Author Topic: Serbian Professor Savic Sonic water heater replication COP 12  (Read 294176 times)
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It's turtles all the way down
Farrah,

I would suggest you just ignore the next bandwagon Chet tries to cheerlead, as thus far they have been a complete waste of time and energy, not to mention bandwidth.

I am annoyed at how so many good minds are jumping to refute this gibberish, giving it way more life and attention than it deserves.

There are big nuts to crack, and this is not one of them.

Poor Peter Davey has probably ingested more toxic metals making tea with his contraption, probably leading to a form of senility or early alzheimers.

He should stick to the sax, it is a bit healthier. A little bit of knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing.

Hopefully my first and last post to this thread, not wanting to add to the parade.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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You're so right Ion, I need to get a grip and stop instinctively responding to this pathetic nonsense.

There you go Chet, I've just learned something!  :)
   
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Well somebody is confused,
Probably Me!

Farrah you are the resident expert on all things HHO ,I am clueless [as you love to remind me]!
I bring the HHO vids here for you to see ,for that very reason !
For a few moments of your time and your opinion! Thats all No band wagon No Brass band ,Not even the fat lady..
 I may highlight the claim  as a brief intro but??
These guys can barely type our language ,They have made rediculous heat claims and swore they would share?
They keep making Vids ......there Crazy ?? Who knows??

As far as Peter Davey
?
I'm building the Serbians supposed Tesla water heating device,It intrigues me on quite a few levels First time I ever heard you could heat water this way was from a fellow whom I used to argue with on these forums years ago
Kator///something
was his handle,an engineer from Europe ,He told me he had a device that was very similar to this and he used it to heat his house but it could be very dangerous and wasn't legal
This was in private Emails
I didn't press him.
Anyhow I'm just doing an experiment with some friends thats all !To say that I'm taking away resources from this community by distracting ?

How  does that work??

I had no idea I had those kind of powers??
I will be more careful with them in the future

Chet
   
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  1.  I'm interested in your experimental results, Chet.   I'm doing a few expts myself, continuing with the blocking oscillator approach.

2.  Bill Mehess at ou.com is showing (finally) what his "cell" looks like, a bit cryptic still -- as in this vid he showed recently --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7klSIifrNsU

  About 0.3V and he claims this cell is NOT galvanic...  What it IS, not disclosed yet.

3.  ION -- weren't you going to do some kind of poll on the various devices??
   
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It's turtles all the way down
From Physics Prof.

Quote
3.  ION -- weren't you going to do some kind of poll on the various devices??

I think you have me confused with Deepcut


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Farrah
Quote
"instinctively responding"  .............. SSOOoo is that anything like  Irresistible??

I will miss your comments Farrah ....There is just something about you??????????? I can't explain it  !
Smart, educated   ...you do experiments...  you share your experiments..  your a girl...... [maybe thats it??]
I  consider you a huge asset to this world and this community!!

PLEASE GIVE ME ANOTHER CHANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am actually trying harder

Sigh.............

@ Steve
As the data comes in I will be posting it here ,MH has promised "Scrutiny"!!
And yes Bill M is starting to discuss his device although it seems Galvanic reaction has not been ruled out?

Thanks
Chet

 
   
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Flattery will get you anywhere  :)

I guess you intrigue me in a way, Chet.  You jump blindly on every bandwagon going but never seem to follow anything up with your own research - and I don't necessarily mean experimentation, you don't even seem to research the science.  You always take it for granted that these things work as claimed, without considering the implications or the science involved.  You claim to be an engineer of sorts, but very basic science seems to elude you - everytime. This I cannot fathom.

I sat through 11 minutes of that last video watching bubbles come out of a pipe, all the time wondering what it was about the video you were impressed by?   

This latest Peter Davey thing is a case in point. The last thing any of you are considering is the most obvious answer to what is occuring: resistive heating.  How can you possibly simply dismiss resitive heating? As myself and others have already alluded to, Core, has around a kilowatt of electrical power sitting across the water between the two electrodes, of course the water is going to get hot, and very fast, but there is absolutely no reason to think that anything acoustic is playing any part.

Ok, there are two versions of this at the moment, Cores, Davey replication and the Secret Serbs thingy that you and Slov are looking at.

As far as I'm concerned, the Peter Davey/Core, bell thing is not even worth the time and effort. The Serb thing is slightly more intriguing due to it's design, but nonetheless highly implausible. Not just because of the wrong labelling of terminals or the high tolerance issues highlighted by MH, but also because of the lack of any specific details or data and the total lack of any science to back up the claims. And of course these suggestions of 400Hz frequencies magically appearing without explanation only go to further fuel our scepticism.

Claims need to be backed up by science, hard facts and figures. This we never, ever see.
   
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And of course these suggestions of 400Hz frequencies magically appearing without explanation...
"Without explanation" or without any explanation that you have read?

In the States, 400hz is worthless.

In the UK, 400hz is three octaves up on the pitch of the local driving AC mains supply.

One day, Farrah, you may read up on the subject. Until that day dawns, as far as Davey
is concerned, you live in a soup of ignorance.
   
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Farrah

I could make no sense of the last Waterenergy1 vid ? They make big claims 30 to 60 LPM They say they run low current at resonance?
If what they are saying is true .... Its way Overunity!!
They say they will share with other experimenters ,not on forums??

I post it for you to see and wait for your response??  Usually cringing in anticipation !!
But I have to do this because there is always that Chance!!

Do I understand these claims Of  resonating 1.2Khz at 90 MA making 1 liter of water rise 40 degrees F in one second,
No I don't, that's not possible to do!   They say they are doing it ,so I show it to you!

Regarding the replication I'm doing, we shall see if there is anything strange or unusual?

I can do many things , some of them very well ,The things I know nothing about ,unless i have a good reason they stay that way !
You are an expert In this ,I have learned thru the years   "YOU DO YOU!!"
And Farrah,"You do you" very well !!

Thank you
Chet
PS
I'm sure these Eastern European Boyz [waterEnergy1]are not done "sharing"
Its really their heat I am interested in Not there HHO. I will scrutinize more carefully
Before posting [but I could miss something??]

   
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Farrah
I brought you another movie
This one is different
MH Too

----------------------

Well my friends it looks like  the history files are being created just  right now  as we speak... at this very moment... At this very time I'm writing this words.

Wesley
Yes I can
Successful replication of OU device
150W output  around 5 W input.
By:
International  group of  people including me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJBpNKSsdqw


Wesley
   
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Farrah

I could make no sense of the last Waterenergy1 vid ? They make big claims 30 to 60 LPM They say they run low current at resonance?
If what they are saying is true .... Its way Overunity!!

Quote
Do I understand these claims Of  resonating 1.2Khz at 90 MA making 1 liter of water rise 40 degrees F in one second,
No I don't, that's not possible to do!   They say they are doing it ,so I show it to you!


I have not seen or read of these resonating claims, I don't read or speak German. But don't you see, what they show in videos could be absolutely anything, and they can say anything they want to - shock, horror, they might even be telling porkies!  They video a few bubbles coming from a pipe under water and claim 30 - 60lpm, when from experience I know I'm seeing barely 1lpm.

But Chet, they also stated that they use 0 - 90vdc - note: dc - give no figure for current (because apparently their voltmeter might blow up!) and show great quantities of water vapour condensing in cooler air, all of which indicates the contrary of just about everything they are saying.  The clues are all there if you look hard enough.  How can you even begin to think that they may be achieving overunity when they do not even give a figure for current draw? It's like me saying that my car goes 300 mph, and to prove it, I'm going to drive it at 30mph, while not showing you the speedo!

There might be a slight issue with the language barrier, but you can only cut them so much slack for this. Afterall, they seem to want to measure current with a voltmeter and also claim that they are producing a current rather than drawing a current from the power supply.

So, Chet, anything about all this not quite ringing true yet? Is your spideysense tingling?
   
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Farrah
These fellows have a few vids, on one they give more info ,but yes I do smell something funny??

But wesley is saying He's got it? [TK Device]
In the movie I posted Above!!
Chet
   
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"Without explanation" or without any explanation that you have read?

In the States, 400hz is worthless.

In the UK, 400hz is three octaves up on the pitch of the local driving AC mains supply.

One day, Farrah, you may read up on the subject. Until that day dawns, as far as Davey
is concerned, you live in a soup of ignorance.

That would be, 'without any explanation and without any explanation I have read'.

If you pop back to page one of this thread and look at the attached diagram you will see that the 400Hz mentioned at the time pertained to a 60Hz AC supply voltage, which was the issue of contention. Not exactly a harmonic... so stick that in your octave pipe and smoke it!
   
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That would be, 'without any explanation and without any explanation I have read'.

If you pop back to page one of this thread and look at the attached diagram you will see that the
400Hz mentioned at the time pertained to a 60Hz AC supply voltage.
It is wrong. That's all.
   
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It is wrong. That's all.

It would appear so wouldn't it. 

The later depiction does show a 50Hz and 400Hz for the Eurpoean version, but oddly the US version on page 2 post #34, shows 60Hz and 300Hz.  ??? So, either harmonics have nothing whatsoever to do with this, or the people playing with this have not got a clue what they are talking about. Either way there is no explanation provided for the figures stated. 
   
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It would appear so wouldn't it. 

The later depiction does show a 50Hz and 400Hz for the Eurpoean version, but oddly the US version on page 2 post #34, shows 60Hz and 300Hz.  ??? So, either harmonics have nothing whatsoever to do with this...
There is certainly a mistake here. Many people don't realise that although most countries use AC, they don't
use the same frequency. I can't imagine why.

But it is not about harmonics; it is about octaves.

Paul-R
   
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Paul:

Quote
But it is not about harmonics; it is about octaves.

Many postings back I dealt with the issue of harmonics or octaves or tuning, whatever you want to call it.  It was in response to Core and he never replied.  So the question can be reworded for you; What about the octaves, what is your presumption or argument about the octaves from start to end?  I am asking you for the whole deal, not just a one-liner response.  How do you believe you can get over unity from this setup?  What do you think the mechanism is?

A quote from Slovenia about the Serbian mentor:

Quote
The contact knows how the device works and is now saying he will explain it to me. He has also sent me two more diagrams of his device to post with some new information. He found a better design for the US version. It needs to run on 220 volts too.

Let's assume that there is no financial incentive for the Serbian person.  The project is too small and too low profile to have some deluded investor to want to throw money at him.  It makes me think that a reasonable explanation is that the Serbian person has mental issues.  There may be some kind of mentoring/control/James Bond "Q" fantasy factor that is in play here.  There are a ton of obscure YouTube clips that may fall into this category also.

I remember many years ago there was a guy in his late forties that regularly walked around a big downtown shopping mall in an old and dirty Superman costume.  So maybe the Serbian guy is sort of the same, a free energy Superman.

I hope that the replicators will be honest and share what happens when you get to the end-game and your replications prove nothing.  How is the Serbian person going to react?  When you look at his end-game behaviour from the perspective I outline above, what are your thoughts?

If I am right, it will be no fun to realize that you were duped by a crazy person.  However, you can chalk it up to a learning experience and perhaps be more selective in the future.  From what I gather, for both proposed water heating systems there isn't a single shred of unverified test data that alleges that either one works.  Everything is being replicated on blind faith.  The only thing that you have is the Peter Davey news clip, and that's no better than the infamous 10-year-old Lutec news clip.  Reporters are always desperate to get a story and they are not scientists.

MileHigh
   
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MH
I'm gonna build it ,and I will give you all the Gorey details Good or Bad!!
Heres what it looks like ,its 220 now and COP 12

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8999-peter-daysh-davey-water-heater-query-16.html#post162487

Chet
   
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We have a diagram supplied by Mr. C.:



The COP claim is 12 for 60 Hz mains power.  So that shouldn't be too difficult to verify even if you "measure with an axe."

It's interesting that for 50 Hz power he indicates a "resonance factor" at eight times the fundamental frequency and for 60 Hz power he indicates a "resonance factor" at five times the fundamental frequency.

The precision for the gap is still too high in my opinion, the average builder will not be able to set the gap to within 1/100th of a millimeter.

The diagram seems to be indicating that the device is designed to work with a continuous flow of water with grounded inlet and outlet water pipes.  However, there is a big issue there and you builders can contemplate it.  If the water inlet and outlet pipes are conductive and grounded, then that sets up a short circuit between the water inlet and outlet points of the plastic container.  That means a lot of current could flow from the "+" AC node and into the grounded water inlet, and then out through the grounded water outlet, and then into the "-" AC node which is the conductive band wrapped around the can.  So this is short-circuiting the operation of the device in the sense that the aluminum can is completely bypassed when the current flow takes this path.  Mr. C seems to be trying to skirt his way around this issue by showing separate and distinct grounds for the water inlet and water outlet.  That's nonsense, how are you supposed to have "separate" grounds?

In my opinion, you should ignore this business about the grounding of the water inlet and outlets completely and figure out how to do your tests safely.  However, with all of the grounding business to contemplate at least he seems to be implying the use of an isolation transformer for the AC "+" and "-" inputs which would be a very very good idea.  The isolation transformer at least keeps you one step removed from the big honking transformer sitting on a telephone pole which renders the setup potentially less lethal.  Keep in mind if you use an isolation transformer with a high enough KVA rating to maintain the output voltage at the high power levels you are dealing with then the setup is still just as lethal.

The big elephant is still in the room:  What is your plan for making measurements on this device?  There is no reason that you can't discuss this before you finish building the thing.  You should not be putting this discussion off and mentally blocking it out while you are in "build mode."  The more you talk about the physical setup and the real test procedure for measuring the COP with your peers the safer off you will be.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2011-10-17, 00:00:45 by MileHigh »
   
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Chet:

Quote
Heres what it looks like ,its 220 now and COP 12

Yes I saw that reference to 220.  So that means you can tap into your 220/240 VAC dryer/oven power panel (or appliance plug on the wall) or perhaps something better:  Get a big North American - European power converter transformer.  That 2:1 transformer will give you your 220/240 VAC and also it acts as an isolation transformer, something you desperately need.  Plus you can't legally tap into a power panel and add a new circuit, you need an electrician to do that.  The NA-EU conversion/isolation transformer is the way I would do it.  If you want high power though, I assume that will be a bit difficult to find and you probably would have to order one online.

There should be big warning bells about this whole thing ringing in your ears. The Serbian Mr. C is changing his spec on the fly, presumably because Slovenia is interacting with him.  He shaved off one digit of precision on his dimensions when in fact he should have shaved off two.  For the gap, as a bare minimum he should be giving you some tolerance information and there is none.  The configuration has changed.  What the hell?  I thought that he had a working system and you were simply trying to replicate it.

Where are Mr. C's measurement numbers and his measurement procedure?

As far as I am concerned, all of this points to a potentially "crazy" person that is winging it and making stuff up as he goes along as he gets feedback from his followers.  For me this brings to mind totally clueless Ismael Aviso and his supposedly self-charging electric car.

Again, what is your test and measurement plan?

MileHigh
   
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Comparison
I planned on comparing the time it takes a Resistance heater [like you posted] to heat 1 liter of water
against the devices time, measuring input power of course with one of those Kilowatt meters!

I felt if the R heater took several minutes and the Device took seconds  ,it would say something is happening here?
Know its 220v and I asked if this is because we can't get the right can in the USA [I'm waiting for a reply}
  Oh By the way I can rip My service panel off my wall and Prance around the house with it if I want !!

No issues with "Legalities . Unless I was working for someone else ....... They wouldn't like me Prancing!!

Thanks for the ideas ,but I'll be dropping a dedicated line for these experiments!

Chet
   
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Chet:

Comparing times sounds like a good way to go.  It should be relatively straightforward after you develop a procedure and all that stuff.

The Kill-a-Watt meter should be a great fit for your testing.  I checked and the resolution when it is accumulating Kilowatt-hours is 0.01 KWh.  So let's check that:  10 watts x 1 hour is (10 x 60 x 60) = 36000 Joules.  So (36000 Joules/1000 milliliters) = 36 Joules of energy per milliliter.  Since 4.19 Joules of energy raises the temperature of the water by one degree Celsius, the delta-temperature for one liter of water based on the granularity of the Kill-a-Watt meter will be (36/4.19) = 8.6 degrees Celsius.

In my opinion that's way too high a temperature change for one liter of water for a single tick of the Kill-a-Watt meter.  It's simply too rough.

My conclusion is that you should do the whole thing based on 10 liters of water.  That's a trivial thing to do with the resistive heater and it would be a bit more complicated with the "sonic" heater.  Perhaps somehow you could simply do multiple runs where you end up heating up a total of 10 liters of water.

Anyway, I am not commenting anymore.  I have an analytical mind and I think in terms of details.  You can see that even with a simple test there are many issues to contemplate to get to the point where your data is reasonably solid and can bear up to scrutiny.

Just for fun, let's look again at what you said:

Quote
I planned on comparing the time it takes a Resistance heater [like you posted] to heat 1 liter of water
against the devices time, measuring input power of course with one of those Kilowatt meters!

If you thought that was a complete description of your testing procedure I am asking you to think again.  I encourage you to discuss these issues with Slovenia and Core and whomever else so that you come up with a testing strategy that is sound and makes sense.

Now, I am going to settle back into my comfortable armchair and watch the show.  I'm not going to say anything until the final results come in.  Good luck.

MileHigh
   
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MH
The Serbian professor has a calculation of cop 12

My gut tells me if this is true all I should need is a stop watch  a thermometer and a glass of water .[and the power in meter]

Is my thinking correct on this ?
Just this one point
COP 12  ......... I can do in One minute ........what should take 12 minutes??

Is that how it works??

Thanks
Chet
PS
BTW
There has been a change ,The professor is going to be more involved in this replication, but the language barrier is Horrific [if you've seen some of Slovenias translations]
   

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One must wonder about the choice of aluminum for
the plate materials of the device.  One Aluminum plate
was also used in the old "wet rectifiers" which were
popular experimenter items in the early 20th century
before the advent of reasonably priced high current
semiconductor diodes.

It would be most interesting to evaluate the current
waveform with the aluminum plates when powered by
50 or 60 Hz AC.  The rapid formation of an aluminum oxide
layer may result in some unusual conductivity characteristics
during each half cycle.

Would you be able to perform such analysis Chet?

Another thing to look for is photon production.  In
darkness you may see the plates glowing as this
was a characteristic of the wet rectifiers.

Here is a link.


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"The best teachers are those who show you where to look, but don't tell you what to see." - Alexandra k. Trenfor.
   
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No
I am limited to performance data
However if things get very interesting I will send one to our Friend Tinsel koala
The metrologist............

Thanks
Chet
BTW
@ Dumped  did you see all that Neutrino talk in the professors post?
   
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